How Putting People Before Profit Grows Revenue with Tom Shepansky (RETHINK)

My guest today is Tom Shepansky, one of the three founders of Canada's hottest and most creative agencies called RETHINK. You may not know the name, but you probably recognize  their award-winning work for such iconic brands as  A&W, IKEA, Westjet, Kraft and Molson just to name a few. Rethink is Canada's only national, independently-owned agency who's work has received Gold in all three of the Digital, Design and Agency competitions in Strategy’s Agency of the Year show.

Tom started Rethink in 1999 with Chris Staples and Ian Grais who have been the co-creative directors since inception. He currently sits on the Rethink Board of Directors with them and helps oversee the strategic direction of the company while continuing to coach and mentor the next generation of Rethinkers.

I invited Tom to be a guest on my show to talk about the Rethink story. I wanted to learn how 3 ad guys joined forces to build one of Canada’s most reputable creative shops. And I was curious to hear about Tom’s foray into the music world with his band called “TwoPointOh”.

💥IF YOU WANT HELP GETTING YOUR CLIENTS TO FALL IN LOVE WITH YOUR BRAND,  REACH OUT TO ME ON SOCIAL AT BRANDING_BADASS OR EMAIL ME AT JGOODSON@GENUMARK.COM

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Hey there, I'm Joelly - the Branding Badass. My badass superpower is helping you build a brand that matters. From branded merch to brand consulting, when you work with me, you get results!

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Transcript

Joelly Goodson : 0:10

Hi I'm Joelly, your Branding Badass, and welcome to season two of Branding Matters. My guest today is Tom Shepansky - one of the three founders of Canada's hottest and most creative agencies called Rethink. You may not know their name, but you probably recognize their award-winning work for such iconic brands as A&W, IKEA. WestJet, Kraft just to name a few. Rethink is Canada's only national independently own agency whose work has received gold in all three of the digital design and agency competitions in strategies agency of the year show. Tom started rethink in 1999 with Chris Staples and Ian Grais, two brilliant co creative directors since inception. Tom currently sits on the Rethink board of directors with them and helps oversee the strategic direction of the company while continuing to coach and mentor the next generation of Rethinkers. I invited Tom to be a guest on my show today to talk about the Rethink story. I wanted to learn how three ad guys joined forces to build one of Canada's most reputable creative shops. And I was curious to hear about Tom's new foray into the music world with his band called Two point Oh. Tom, welcome to Branding Matters.

Tom Shepansky: 1:30

It's great to be here, Joelly. Thanks for having me.

Joelly Goodson : 1:33

It's so nice to have you here. I love when people introduce me to new and interesting people. And then we connect and now you're on my podcast. So this is great. I want to get right into rethink because you guys are hot right now, not just in Canada. But I understand you're just opening up or have opened up an office in New York as well. So lots to cover. First of all, I want to go to beginning how do you Ian and Chris know each other and how did this evolve? Yeah,

Tom Shepansky: 2:01

I mean, it goes way back. Chris and I started in Edmonton in the early 80s. On that old we started at an agency together Junior copywriter, Junior account guy. And we've worked together our whole career 35 years. At four agencies. I'd call Chris like a brother and honestly, one of the most talented both Christian and two of the most talented creative people I've had a chance to come across and work with. And then Chris and I met Ian when we were at Palmer Jarvis in the early 90s. They grew to be the co creative directors of Palmer Jarvis in Vancouver and nationally, and I ran the client service group. So we, you know, we worked under Frank Palmer and Palmer Jarvis through the 90s and had a great run there and sort of learn the really the importance and value of creativity from the run that we had. And they sold to a multinational. So things changed. Yeah, so that's where that's where we met.

Joelly Goodson : 2:55

Okay, so then what made you decide to join forces? And what was the genesis of Rethink?

Tom Shepansky: 3:00

The real tipping point Joelly, was Palmer Jarvis was on an amazing run to three time agency of the year highly awarded. And the owner sold the business to Omnicom. And you heard the speech, which you hear all the time, nothing's going to change, it's all going to be the same. Bla bla bla bla bla. And honestly, a week later, you know, we joke are they charging for every photocopy, like a week later, it honestly started to shift, you could feel the shift. And the shift really, from putting people and product first, which was when you're independent, you can, and you just saw this profit creep, you saw the importance of profit, the focus on profit, and it was not long into the transition and sale to Omnicom that we just started talking and saying, This isn't the same. This isn't the magic that we had when we were independent. So that was really the tipping point. And and then you know, you have dinners together, you're on shoots together and you start having conversations about isn't there something like what we had? And then we thought, Well, why couldn't we create that? That was sort of the genesis.

Joelly Goodson : 4:08

And so you three of you came together and you started off just three of you or did you hire people?

Tom Shepansky: 4:14

We read a book and the Okay. Oh, open minds, open minds was written by Andy law, who broke away from China that day, and he created a company called St. Luke's that was values based that was a cooperative, and we read it, actually, we were distributing it around Palmer Jarvis and some of the senior management got it and go, what's this all about? This is like the Dark Sector, right? So with that inspiration said, why kind of why not us? Why can't we do something? So So yeah, it was to answer your question. It was the three of us. We grew in our first year to almost 20 People always been profitable, but not by putting Profit First, but by managing and adjusting the business to the conditions of the year really had good fortune. out of the gate had good momentum. We didn't poach any clients, some people came over, we got some good opportunities, and we got some pretty major business in our first year of business. So we're up to almost 20 After our first year,

Joelly Goodson : 5:12

20 employees?

Tom Shepansky: 5:13

20 employees.

Joelly Goodson : 5:14

Wow, that's amazing. Um, where did you where was your head office? In Vancouver?

Tom Shepansky: 5:17

Yeah, it was in Vancouver, we had quite a rundown little space because you don't put your money into overhead, you put it into talent, we literally had month to month space in this building that didn't have heat. And we won the NW business. I remember, the CEO and president come in, and there was no heat in the building. So we had these portable space heaters was just It was ridiculous. But again, they were looking for talent, not fancy offices. So we started and we've always had a Vancouver presence in Vancouver operation, but over time, obviously expanded beyond Vancouver.

Joelly Goodson : 5:51

So tell me about the name Rethink,

Tom Shepansky: 5:53

You know, well, first of all, we didn't want to be the old school use our surname, we it wasn't going to be Staples, Shepansky, Grais or something like that. So with that, we treated the agency like our first creative assignment and said, Let's come up with a name that resonates a name that is different, but hopefully a name that makes a little bit of a statement because I you know, there's lots of companies that have creative names. But we I'd say we got lucky, you know, the notion of rethinking something is to think differently. So we like the idea. But the funny story about the name Joelly is when we opened we started with Rethink, and we didn't realize this is again, you know, this is 1999, there was actually a Rethink in Toronto in marketing. And we then the trademark lawyer said, you may not have the rights to use this and almost like, Oh, my God, how embarrassing that would have been. So I've managed to purchase the rights from that company for what now seems like nothing. It was one of those tense moments where I thought, Oh, my God, we might have to change her name that that'd look pretty bad as a branding agency. We didn't do our trademark search.

Joelly Goodson : 6:58

How long after?

Tom Shepansky: 6:59

This was like in our third month, so we managed and obviously, we've been proud to use it ever since. And it's been helpful. I think Ian often says, Rethinks, like a one word business model. You know, I think for most people, it's a constant learning journey. And rethinking is about constantly learning and growing.

Joelly Goodson : 7:15

Oh, yeah, I think it's a great name. And it's more than just a name. It's really a concept. I mean, that's exactly what it is. So what do you think your special sauces that has propelled you into such success? And in such a quick time, like you said,

Tom Shepansky: 7:28

You know, I think the biggest thing is staying true to our core values. So when we started, the story I'd tell you is we had a little whiteboard in that crappy little office and on the whiteboard, we said, Well, what do we want to do? Well, we want to work with people we believe in. We want to work on brands we believe in. And we want to believe that they're looking for a creative opportunity to solve their business problem. And we thought, Wow, that's pretty idealistic. But that's just kind of smart. Right? And then I wrote in not so small letters, and they have to pay our rates. Yeah, right. Right. But so the special sauce would be just like the three chapters in the book, people, product profits, in that order. But all are critically important, like profits, not important. But if you prioritize that, over the health and well being and talent of your team, and the output that you deliver, that's just not in alignment. For me, it's kind of just common sense, right? Like, it's like, just be nice to people Be kind, be supportive, pay them well, we have profit sharing, like we make money, share the profit. And guess what, we have people who've been with us 20 plus years, and you worked in the business? Like that's almost unheard of.

Joelly Goodson : 8:46

For sure. Yeah, people go to from different agency to different agency very much. So like law firms. And law firms are the same way for some reason.

Tom Shepansky: 8:55

Well, it's similar. So why do you think they're leaving, because there's this misalignment of values? And you know, what's actually really inspiring is I look at the next generation, I look at millennials and younger, and guess what the first question they ask is, what are your values they see if you stand by your value? So you know, not that we were early into this, but again, that just made good business sense and good common sense. And it's like a life skill. Just be good to people. And when I say that, did we part ways with people? Absolutely. Did people not fit? Absolutely. Did we have conflict? And did we try to deal with it respectfully, but yeah, in the end, coming out of the pandemic, health and well being of people is obviously only that much more important. So that's it that would be a special sauce and alignment with clients who we have a shared belief around the power of creativity, saying no to clients who want to tell you what the ad should look like. That's been at the core for sure our purpose because everyone's got a purpose creating believers in the brands we believe in.

Joelly Goodson : 9:55

That's a great way to look at things and you're right, you are a bit of a pioneer in that Because right now, I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of leaders all about branding. And it's really about aligning what your brand stands for and what your purpose is with your audience, because that's how you're going to connect with them. And that's how you're going to get them to fall in love with your brand. And that's how you're going to create loyalty and all that. So it does all go back to purpose. And that's probably one of the reasons why you are so successful today.

Tom Shepansky: 10:21

Thank you. But I say the brands that I believe in, like I look at who's behind it, probably one of the earlier into this was Yvonne Barnard and Patagonia. You know, I've read his book, Let my people go surfing. He's written lots of books, they have 1% for the planet, they just do so many things, right. And I know they're a big company now. But I'm inspired by leaders who have clear purpose in this city. You know, Lululemon has been an incredibly successful brand will. Early days, I learned about Simon Sinek through Lululemon. And I was a lemon meeting probably 15 years ago, and they go, we should refer to the Golden Circle, I go, What are you talking about? And then I went and watched his TED Talk, people buy with their hearts, clients choose an agency based on their emotion and their heart. And it's no different for any of us as we align with brands as we align with companies.

Joelly Goodson : 11:12

Absolutely. We make most of our decisions on emotional level, right? I mean, they say, listen to your gut, or listen to your heart. I think that's human nature. And I think when you tap into that, like you said, especially with your branding, and your marketing, I think that's where you're gonna really make that connection and be successful.

Tom Shepansky: 11:26

It's easy to think about all the rational and functional reasons why people buy what you buy, and you need all those for rationalization, right? Because people need to rationalize every decision they make. But for them to put you at the top of the consideration list. It's really 100% emotion, and it's 100%. Do I fall in love with that, and then you can actually charge more, you can demand lots of things as a brand, because you could be out of stock I getting an arc Tex jacket for Christmas. So I had to find one halfway across the country for someone I was buying it for? Well, I'm scrambling, I've got a different color. But I'm okay with that. Because that's the brand I want.

Joelly Goodson : 12:07

Right. So another brand that comes to mind is Yeti, I have so many clients that love to get yetis from me, and they can't keep them in fast enough, the stock just goes and you know, Yeti is a bit of a cult brand, right? And for all the same reasons, I think we could go on and on and on where you can tell we're both so passionate. But I want to get right into your book, because you did mention your book that the three of you wrote together, which I suspect must have been an interesting exercise. It's called Rethink For Creativity. So what inspired you to write that book? And who did you write it for?

Tom Shepansky: 12:35

Well, let's just start with the last thing the world needs is a memoir from three ad guys, right? Geez, that would be lame and not interesting. So we really tried to ensure that it wasn't about us and our journey. And in fact, we initially said we're not going to put our name on it. It should be from rethink er. So we actually had pushback from our team to go come on, you guys at least you have to have authors right that put their name on the what we chose to do. It's we just and Ian, I really want to give him a shout out because he drove he was the driving force to say no, we should put on record some of the things that we did some of the things that we learned some of the knowledge that we could share. So I'd say for anyone interested in a creative business in any shape or form, we just tried to lay out the things that we tried, we joke to you can take any idea, steal it and make it better the world right now, there's lots of great ideas out there. And we need to whether it's business or entrepreneurs, or creatives, let's just help each other. And this was really about putting out some of our playbook in an open source fashion to say, Hey, this is what we tried to do around people and well being and doing the best work of your career around product getting to good work, because that's hard in and of itself. And as much as it takes talent. It takes a process like we've got we've called the rethink machine to get to better work, and then around profit. And you'll see from the book, Chris wrote the intro around people in wrote the intro around product, and I wrote the intro around profit, and not that we stuck in those lanes. But I think we each talked about the role that those three played and it was shared learning. So we open sourced it within rethink, we had a lunch and learn to say hey, we're thinking of a book. Here's the topics. We got feedback on the topics and then you know, we started down the process. We treated each chapter like a bit of a creative assignment. So there's visuals and then Morgan Tierney, one of the creative directors and writers in Vancouver, super talented, she actually took all the content and rewrote it all in one voice because it needed one voice to be able to be coherent and pulled together. I want to share this is the nicest compliment that I got. It was a letter I got about a year ago because I sent it to a bunch of friends. He said most books written by founders don't impress me. However, you're less than learned approach implies humility, thoughtfulness and wisdom. After a couple chapters, I slowed down and he said, I just limited myself to one chapter per reading, with times to reflect, congratulations. So anyway, you know what to get a nice note. And he said, what we thought isn't about us. This is about, hey, if we can help some young entrepreneurs say, why not me, like I can do this. And these guys, hey, there's some not bad ideas. So that was the inspiration.

Joelly Goodson : 15:29

That's great. So it's interesting. That was your inspiration. And then you got that feedback, which is was exactly what you were out to do. He just confirmed that. So that's amazing. Can you say who it was?

Tom Shepansky: 15:40

His name is Bob Wallace just a wonderful leader I met you know, one of the things I was fortunate enough to do, Julius, I participated in a CEO form group, a peer to peer form group. So Bob was part of my CEO form group, and just a wonderful, inspiring guy. And you can just see how awful I think feedback is a gift. And when you get that kind of positive feedback, it's just it's not that you need validation was sure nice, right. And it's emotional. I hadn't picked up that letter for a year.

Joelly Goodson : 16:09

I know, you know what, it's interesting. I mean, it's not in the same caliber, but my motivation. When I started this podcast, I don't know if I told you is really to help people because of what happened with COVID. And people were being laid off. And there was all these flourished entrepreneurs and small business owners, and it's not about me, but it's about me bringing on people like yourself, to share your stories and your experiences, and maybe some valuable tips to help them when I get feedback, or emails or messages. What I like about that is that it's actually confirming that what I set out to do is working. It's not about being the best podcast, but it's about I'm actually helping people, which was my ultimate goal. So I totally get where you're coming from in that respect.

Tom Shepansky: 16:46

Yeah, yeah. So you can see in stamp and the visuals within the book are incredible. Chris is probably the best writer I know. And an amazing editor. So yeah, it was just it was awesome.

Joelly Goodson : 16:59

So you're like Roger Sterling. And Chris is like Don Draper?

Tom Shepansky: 17:03

I've been married for 20 years. So no

Joelly Goodson : 17:07

I just I, yeah. People who may not know the rules of what they are non advertising people. I think when you say that they get it? Yeah, yeah. Did you ever watch Madmen by the way?

Tom Shepansky: 17:17

Oh, God. Of course it was. So we all did. And it was I think it was really well done. Thank God, I missed that era, because I wouldn't be happily married with my inspiring life partner for 25 years.

Joelly Goodson : 17:31

Or be alive. I think of them sitting there with their, you know, double scotches and cigarettes at their desks.

Tom Shepansky: 17:39

We caught the tail end of that, and I was grateful that it was the tail end for sure. So yeah.

Joelly Goodson : 17:45

Okay. So you mentioned earlier you talked about your, was it your first client or one of your first clients? A&W and they've been your client for almost 22 years. Is that fair to say?

Tom Shepansky: 17:54

Yeah, it is, you know, in our third month of business, and w was disgruntled we'd worked in the category at the prior agency. So Jeff Mooney and Paul Hollins. And their marketing team came in Jeff was the CEO, Paul, the president. And we were brutally honest with them about our approach and what we thought of their current work. And we teamed up and it's funny, our connection to that brand, Chris and I both grew up in Edmonton was baby burgers and baby mugs in the back of a car at the car hop, right? Like we knew that brand from our view. And what we demonstrated is our belief in the brand and in the business. So it's been an amazing ride. So inspired by their journey as a Canadian brand. At the time, we were sort of fighting it out with a Burger King and Wendy's for number two in the category right? Now, NW is the dominant second, you know, second to the big guy. And we all know who the big guy is in the burger category. But what's so inspiring is their journey over the last 10 years into better food into better ingredients and to connect with the next generation of customer to go no home hormones and steroids in the beef. Now grass fed to go to a better spec, have a good, better spec, like just a better spec across the board. And that's what the world needs is I think people are looking for companies that are trying are trying to be better, and relationships matter. Right? Like and if you've got a good relationship, you can do good work. If you don't have a good relationship, good luck doing the good work. It goes hand in hand. Do you think of my relationship with my business partners, my relationship with my life partners, my relationship with our client partners, it's all the power of partnerships and truly treating each other with respect and looking out for each other and being a giver, not a taker. Like there's so much in that trust.

Joelly Goodson : 19:44

Trust is huge.

Tom Shepansky: 19:47

What we do is a byproduct of the trust we create right?

Joelly Goodson : 19:51

100% So how did you help them or did you help them to rethink their brand and their branding?

Tom Shepansky: 19:56

they lead their business strategy with a very disciplined approach. So they included us in that. And at the time, I'm going back to 2019 99 into 2000, they brought back the burger family, and we're connecting with boomers at the time, and the memories of the driving era. So we went through a full cycle with boomers and driving era, and then rewrote the strategy. They let it okay now boomers are stopping, you know, you get to a stage and age, you're not eating the burgers that used to so younger millennials was the new target. And we pivoted to that audience, and then they go, burger family, what's that they didn't have the emotional connection to the history. But what we created was an emotional connection to the food and better food. The one part, our spokesperson, Alan Lewis, is named just the most amazing guy, we were able to transfer him from the fictitious manager in the driving era, to the man on the street,

Joelly Goodson : 20:53

Everybody knows him, I was gonna ask you about him actually,

Tom Shepansky: 20:56

Of course, boomers like him, because he's kind of the same age and he's, he is lovable, amazing. But then all of a sudden, we can take him out and interact with Canadians, and everyone is okay with that. It's like taking a sitcom character out of a sitcom, go to a talk show is that character? It's like, what? What, that's never gonna happen.

Joelly Goodson : 21:16

Yeah, it's crazy. If someone is rethinking their branding, or trying to help somebody else, whether they're a small agency, to rethink their brand, what are some key tips or points that you can offer?

Tom Shepansky: 21:27

Good branding actually starts with good business or corporate strategy? Like I think the first thing, we do our best work for businesses that are clear about who they are to begin with. So you don't approach it through the lens of what is your brand about? You approach it through the lens? What is my business strategy? What's my business purpose? What are my core values? What are the key points of difference for the product or service or what we deliver. So if you start with that, then the branding piece, it really comes out of that a brand with a clear sense of purpose is like gold for us. Because then we can say, well, the emotional benefit is this, the functional benefit is that the reason to believe and the shared belief is this. And then you create work against that to deliver on both the branding strategy, but more importantly, laddering up to the business or corporate strategy. So I'd say that piece for any client would be key. But a couple of the things that I'd say, which are in the book, too, would be you want to net it down. They're overly ambitious, and they try to do too many things. And they don't do one thing well, so whether it's in a piece of communication, say one thing, say, Well, if you've got three things to say, have three pieces of communication, that say those three things. And I'm a big believer in sort of netting things down, and simplifying things. And we call it in the book ping pong ball theory, right? So if I threw five ping pong balls at you, you would probably catch none of them, right? Because you wouldn't know which one to focus on. If I threw one. I know, because you look like an athlete, you probably like I don't even then because it's almost impossible. Yeah, I'd say keep it simple. distill it down, one ping pong ball. And then the last piece is, when you think of companies, you think of values. When I think of brands, I think of brand personality, don't discount the ability for the brand to differentiate through the personality that you create for the brand. So and again, to our earlier discussion about emotion, like you want to have a piece of communication that either inspires someone, you know, maybe they have a goose bump, maybe they got a tear, maybe something goes on, but you want to have a personality that creates that emotional connection. So it's not just what you say, but how you say it. That can be the difference.

Joelly Goodson : 24:04

I love those. Those are great. I'm just curious, though. So knowing all that and going back to your name and your your purpose in your values, if there's a brand out there or business out there, and they've been doing all those things you say, but when I think about rethinking it's like think differently, right? So they were doing it one way what would be the motivation for them to think differently or to rethink what they're doing?

Tom Shepansky: 24:28

What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result right?

Joelly Goodson : 24:34

It's not working for them and they don't know why?

Tom Shepansky: 24:37

Well you don't know why. So and the beauty of digital and the world we live in today is I read Lean Startup, which is a great book and it's all about Iterative development agile development test and try it test try learn test, try learn. So you fail. Failure is part of learning right? 100% Failure is part of it like and, but the nice thing is Today, I mean, you can fail fast and not as many people notice in the, you know, back in the digital space. Yeah, we're right back in the traditional space that you and I both lived in, man, you run some bad campaign and it's out there for weeks and you're just dying, right? Because you know, it's bad, right?

Joelly Goodson : 25:17

it's on billboards and bussboards

Tom Shepansky: 25:19

and you're just going oh, did I do? Yeah, so we didn't fortunately do too many of those. But yeah, I'd say fail fast, iterative design, be agile in your approach and test and learn.

Joelly Goodson : 25:29

I love that. That's actually great advice. So thank you. So music, we're gonna switch gears. First of all, I love music. I love all music. little birdie told me that you are in a band called Two Point Oh. Tell me, what do you do in this band? What's your... do you play an instrument? Are you a singer? Tell me all aboutit, I want to hear.

Tom Shepansky: 25:47

Was kind of crazy. So what I had the joy and pleasure of doing is I was always the business of the suit in the room literally wore the suit was the business guy. I always said my job at Rethink was to create the conditions for great creative to happen, work on strategy, build trust with clients, but I always deep down thought, Man, if only I were a creative

Joelly Goodson : 26:14

You look like a suit guy. I mean, you're sitting there in a T shirt and you've got your beads and you know, you see more, yeah, I can see that.

Tom Shepansky: 26:23

And I like you huge music fan over the years literally six years ago, I walked into long and McQuade and I bought a Fender Jazz Bass. I just thought okay, the guitar seems too difficult. I don't want to drum because it's a bit loud. When I listened to music, the baselines always part of it. So I bought it. And then I got home and I put well here I'll show you I put it on the stand, right. So there it is, oh, I sit on the stand. And then after about two, three months, I just kind of looked at it. And I thought well, maybe it's just a piece of art, right? So so but then I started playing tabs, and I started on my own learning. And about a year later, I've got placed on Saltspring, the guy who encouraged me to buy it has a place there. He's got he's a drummer. So he said, Why don't we just get together? And we'll jam. Long story short, five years later, we've probably had I don't know, I'm gonna say 4040 gigs. We've opened for Tom Cochran this past? Oh, wow. How many of you are in the band. So there's four of us. I play bass, I sing back up. We've got a lead singer that plays some rhythm. We've got a lead guitarist and a drummer. And 2.0 is for most of us. We all have had careers and lives. Right. So this is the next chapter. Yeah. So that's where 2.0 emerge from. It's like, what's next? What's different? I have this emotional connection to music. And I never know, Joey, I would never could have imagined that at this age and stage. I pivot into playing and now performing and we've got about 70 songs in our repertoire. We play original. Do you play all original? Or do you play covers? So I'd say JJ Cale would be sort of roots blues guy, Eric Clapton, John Mayer, we play some Bob Dylan.

Joelly Goodson : 28:10

Nice if people want to learn more about you, or they want to connect with you, Tom, what's the best way? Are you on social media at all?

Tom Shepansky: 28:16

Yeah, I'd say best place probably LinkedIn. I've got a pretty deep and connected LinkedIn presence. I'll put my email out there. It's Tom at Rethinkcanada.com would be the way to connect with me directly. And I just want to end by sayong you're really good at this. I've really enjoyed it. It's just felt like we're sitting on a couch having a coffee and having a chat. And I just want to commend you on your skills and your talent and just your success to with what you're doing. I'm really proud of you and and it's been a just a pleasure.

Joelly Goodson : 28:51

You're so kind, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Like I said, I mean, I'm so fortunate because I have amazing guests like you. When else can I get to sit down and have a one hour conversation with these incredible leaders? And you being one of them. So I'm honored. And I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And quickly, the website is rethink.com

Tom Shepansky: 29:09

Rethinkcanada.com

Joelly Goodson : 29:10

Okay, awesome. Well, thank you again, I look forward to meeting you in person next time. I'm in Vancouver, we are definitely going to have to get together and have a drink. I want to come see you play

Tom Shepansky: 29:19

when my band comes in plays the Calgary Stampede on you, I'm gonna let you know for sure. So we absolutely love that. But it's been a real pleasure. Thank you and really enjoy spending time with you.

Joelly Goodson : 29:29

Well, likewise right back at you and we'll talk soon.

Tom Shepansky: 29:32

Bye. Thanks.

Joelly Goodson : 29:33

Bye. And there you have it. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and maybe learned a few things to help you with your branding. Most of all, I hope you had some fun. This show is a work in progress. So please remember to rate and review on whatever platform you listen to podcasts. And if you want to learn more about me and what I do to help my clients with their branding, feel free to reach out to me on any of the social channels under you guessed it, Branding Badass. Branding Matters was produced, edited and hosted by Joelly Goodson, also me. So thanks again and until next time, here's to all you badasses is out there!