Branding Matters

Aimee Johnson - Be Clear on Your Brand Promise

December 03, 2021 Branding Badass Episode 45
Branding Matters
Aimee Johnson - Be Clear on Your Brand Promise
Show Notes Transcript

My guest today is Aimee Johnson, the Chief Marketing Officer of Zillow - the world’s largest real estate platform that offers customers an on-demand experience for selling, buying, renting and financing their homes.

As CMO of Zillow, Aimee is responsible for driving brand experiences and growing national brand awareness. Prior to joining Zillow in 2018, Aimee served as Sr.VP of Marketing Programs and Digital Innovation at Starbucks. And before that, she held leadership roles at both Campbell’s Soup Company and Sallie Mae.

I invited Aimee to be a guest on my show to discuss how she helped transform the Zillow brand int a household name. I wanted to learn what the secret to their success is. And I was curious to get her POV on how technology has changed the way people buy homes.

💥IF YOU WANT HELP GETTING YOUR CLIENTS TO FALL IN LOVE WITH YOUR BRAND,  REACH OUT TO ME ON SOCIAL AT BRANDING_BADASS OR EMAIL ME AT JGOODSON@GENUMARK.COM

Joelly Goodson :

Hi, I'm Joelly, your Branding Badass, and welcome to Season Two of Branding Matters. My guest today is Amy Johnson, the Chief Marketing Officer of Zillow, the world's largest real estate platform that offers customers and on demand experience for selling, buying, renting and financing their homes. As CMO of Zillow, Amy is responsible for driving brand experiences and growing national brand awareness. Prior to joining Zillow in 2018, Amy served as Senior VP of marketing programs and digital innovation at Starbucks. And before that, she held leadership roles at both Campbell Soup Company and Sallie Mae. I invited me to be a guest on my show today to discuss how she helped transform the Zillow brand. I wanted to learn what the secret to their huge successes, and I was curious to get her point of view on how technology is changing the way people are buying homes. Amy, welcome to branding matters.

Aimee Johnson:

Thanks so much for having me.

Joelly Goodson :

It's so great having you here. I'm so excited to hear about Zillow and everything that you guys are doing. So before we get into that, though, I want to learn a little bit about you. I read somewhere that when you were a little kid used to watch TV, but you only watched the TV commercials that used to be used to love doing that. So I'm curious to know why that is. And do you still do that today?

Aimee Johnson:

Well, thank you back. I think I'd love the snippets of color and the singing and the sounds we put yourself back in the 70s 80s. So some of the ones that come to mind are like tootsie pop, you know, how many licks does it take to get to the center? Of course you're eating one watching it going? I don't know. Let me count. Like 250 Like it's not three Alka Seltzer. There was a guy that had to keep eating meatballs and you're like, oh my gosh, my my mom forcing me to eat food. And I was like, I can relate to that my stomach doesn't feel good. Or like, I don't know Fred Flintstone cereal. Who does Mike pick milk? It was almost like all the different things that I would watch. You can like if you relate to them the Ginsu knife. Oh, my God, it cuts cuts of can and it cuts me like it's just I don't know. I just found it. Super interesting.

Joelly Goodson :

Did you used to watch those k tell record ads and you're younger? You tell?

Aimee Johnson:

I have those albums, thank you very much.

Joelly Goodson :

Yeah, right. Or I think about those infomercials way back when it was like But wait, hold on. There's more. There's more.

Aimee Johnson:

Shelby Flowbee was the hair vacuum your hair a second. I watched more of those today though. Now. I think the world is almost I think YouTube and Tik Tok are just big infomercials. Oh, yeah. I'm finding myself watching the videos on Amazon and then tick tock and YouTube to try to figure out and it feels like a back infomercial. Again, interesting. It might be five years what it does, and so like a slinky.

Joelly Goodson :

Go on and on. And so do you still watch it? Like, I don't know about you, but I don't watch nearly as much TV as I did. Because now we're online. And my kids don't even watch TV. All they do is watch YouTube. What about your kids?

Aimee Johnson:

Yeah, no, they watch YouTube, they watch basically streaming.

Joelly Goodson :

So when you watch those ads, or when you seen us? Do you take some of it and use it in what you're doing today? I mean, do you have a med make a mental note of it? Or do you do actual notes and think, Oh, I like that the way they executed that? And do you think of it in a work way? Or is it just more entertainment? You just enjoy them?

Aimee Johnson:

I think both are super intellectually curious. They just find them fun. Like sometimes I look at it, like what the heck problem are they trying to solve? Or they're trying to communicate? Other times I'll be so engaged like the force, you know, the, the Darth Vader kid that gets surprised by the VW car when it starts because he thinks and investigate that and go ah, should that and the kid was actually surprised. And so for that, like I remember Oh, when we're doing something like that, where the actor actress doesn't know, maybe we should set it up that way like so I have an intellectual curiosity and also from a work perspective.

Joelly Goodson :

What's your background? Where did you go to university or college as they say in the US?

Aimee Johnson:

I went to undergrad at Virginia Tech and I specialized in marketing and then I got an MBA at George Washington University. Oh, wow. Okay,

Joelly Goodson :

so where are you right now? Where do you live?

Aimee Johnson:

I am and the rain. nice, sunny weather always changing city of Seattle, Washington.

Joelly Goodson :

I love Seattle. Not that far from Canada. I'm in Calgary. So just you know, there's a nice, yeah. Okay, so you been at Zillow since 2018. And speaking of Seattle, before that, you were at Starbucks. So I'm assuming you were at Starbucks in Seattle. Right? How long?

Aimee Johnson:

14 years.

Joelly Goodson :

And what did you do there?

Aimee Johnson:

I see you when I was last day, or I was SVP of digital innovation. Ran the loyalty program launched mobile order and pay much to personalization platform ran analytics for them did a lot of that stuff. My last six years before that. I ran beverage I did a lot of product creation.

Joelly Goodson :

Oh wow. 14 years, okay. And now you've been absorbed since 2018. So those are two pretty huge brands. Would you say? What do you think there's any similarities between the two and if there are what would you say they differ?

Aimee Johnson:

Outside of the Brand awareness that you just talked about. What I have been struck by is both companies were founded by a group of really core individuals that felt passion for a thing they were launching, right that didn't exist in the marketplace. So you have Howard Schultz, heartbeat or Smith and a couple others that wanted to bring the romance of the Italian coffee bar, the United States, you know, the flavor of a latte and the third place to sit and just chat. And they also wanted to offer healthcare and treat their employees as if their partners by giving them ways to invest in the company. And then rich and Lloyd and Amy and a couple others came together for Zillow to create a data marketplace where everybody can see information about any house for sale this Believe it or not way back when you couldn't do that the data was fragmented all over the place. And in addition to data, they also wanted to create a workplace where employees could come together and be their best selves every day. So it's kind of actually quite a bit of similarities and how the companies came to be. And today, they both know growth companies, they're both trying to create customer experiences, you know, their, their brand is not just the brand, right? It's it's all the touch points that the customer has with the company. So they see themselves as customer centric and driving love to the experiences they have.

Joelly Goodson :

And so going from Starbucks to Zillow, what has been the biggest change would you say the biggest difference

Aimee Johnson:

Biggest difference has been literally there's retail stores and the omni channel of retail very different than the interconnected communications of tech with some physical spaces. And retailers like you're on right now. It's holiday like Mocha goes missing, you gotta go find the Mocha, right? You can't if you're consumed today, and you need to be back tomorrow. Like there's a there's an energy in that space and an attack the energy is around what's the future, what's the way we're going to satisfy the customer? How are we going to bring them in and have conversations with them. So it's a little different energy, the physical space, the barista is there in intersecting with the customer. Every day was a little different than the engineers that are creating experiences behind the computer launching things for the customer. The energy though growth and getting something out there for the customer. And I like giving them something they don't already have in the marketplace, that energy is still what it is to both places,

Joelly Goodson :

right. And they're both pretty slick. You said they're very strong brands and people can have a strong connection with them right with the internet

Aimee Johnson:

every day. You can interact with both businesses, coffee shop, or you can go on Zillow, you could snoop on your next door neighbor's house. What's the next house you want to have? You know, you can you can interact every day above?

Joelly Goodson :

Can you give a little background story to the founders and tell us about Zillow and who they are and what they do and what makes them I guess in a way a disruptive would you call a disruptive brand,

Aimee Johnson:

I want 100% Because of what they did, and bright real estate. So at heart, it feels as if their marketplace craters. So Rich Barton and Lloyd Frank were both to Microsoft employees and went on to start Expedia. Their goal was to bring power to the people by providing a way for travelers to book their own trips and access information that was not available to the public. So again, go way back in the time machine, remember, you had to call a travel agent do a thing, it forced the entire industry to go digital and force the entire digital mafia to be transparent, like it was, it's pretty groundbreaking when they did that. And so after their time and expedient, and it was interesting, they both were looking for their next business venture and also happen to be looking for a house to buy. And so when they're shopping for homes, they're like totally frustrated by the home buying process, because none of the information is at your fingertips. And so they created Dillo, they realized they could take this power the people thing that they do with marketplace, they could do it in the real estate market. And so let's give information to customers and not just give information to customers, because also at the time, there was no way you can value your own house, they didn't even know like that house across the street that they may want to buy that might be for sale, how much should they be offering on that? So I think what's been interesting is now that we've kind of created this market, we have this estimate that exists that helps you out, we've actually shifted the mission, which originally was Power to the People create the marketplace now is unlike life's next chapter, because can you be sure we want to help customers unlock their life's next chapter. So if you think about every address you've had is an experience you've had and you've moved for a reason. Generally, people don't just like up and move because they want to move. There's like a birth or death or divorce or marriage. You graduate school, what have you, right, as part of that is your house, your new home, it's your identity. It's who you are at that moment in time. And so our mission is not just giving you here's the marketplace, we also want to actually help you realize your best self and get you into that house that you see is you and where you want to be.

Joelly Goodson :

I love that I love that you said about it being experiential, because that's a big part of branding, right? It's more than just buying a house. It's the experience of mine.

Aimee Johnson:

And our role in that is helping people continue to move forward. Like just keep moving forward. Just keep putting one foot in front We're gonna help you with that. It is hard, right? Like, you have to search for the house. And then once you search and find your house, not just any house, you're all of a sudden desperately dating. And you're not sure what to do so much emotion you don't have the data comes in from left field, you're like, I don't know what I could afford. And is this really the right place and you start using your data brain does start justifying your heart. And it gets emotional, like 30% of people cry at some point during the during the moving process. So yeah, so it's, it's how can we help make that less traumatic, less uncertain, people with a lot of confidence come into the moving process and become very quickly not confident in themselves? Or what they know and have you? So we want to help our customers move forward, help them have the confidence help them have the tools and the understanding, to get through it to the other side?

Joelly Goodson :

Can you share a few things that you do to do that to help them do that?

Aimee Johnson:

Mission? So we do a lot of stuff with content. So we have some economists that are helping through what you need to do to buyer buy a house sell a house, what is it out market look like? What is down market look like? So we have a lot of content. We also have different product features that we've been watching from on demand tours. So you can get into a house to see it you have 3d tours to see which was big and COVID. Right, you want to see that new couch, you don't want to go to people's houses, we've been streamlining some of the back of house services like closing services, they should not be as difficult as they are. So those are just some of the things that we have that we've been working on. But there's over 200 different steps in moving process. So it is trying to work with our customers and understanding what the customers need next and why Zillow should be the one solving that for them because to your point at brand, there's 200 plus different steps. There's probably another steps or customers wouldn't go first Zillow helping them but there are a lot Brasil the brand in their mind should go next. And those are the intersections the biggest pain points for the customer with the biggest reasons the biggest like kind of allowance by customers for the brand and the solving those problems for them.

Joelly Goodson :

Let's say I was looking to buy a house, would you work with me? Or would do you work with real estate agents and brokers? Or do you work with both?

Aimee Johnson:

Well, we made a pivot. I want to say around the same time we changed the mission back in 2018 19 were the people that were servicing the consumer. Those are our customers, right? Everybody Everybody in the system should be maniacally focused on getting a human into the home that's right for them. Be an agent be at Zillow be at the mortgage lender, whomever the customer, the one person we're serving, that's the customer. Now we have a ton of partnerships, right we partner with agents, we partner with brokerages, we partner with mortgage houses, etc. And those are partnerships we have. So while we are all in service to each other, I believe that we come from my background of Starbucks, you know that one thing actually lets a customer be happy, multiple things does the maniacal focus on the customer themselves and servicing them helps them the whole model. Start seeing where there's opportunity for fixing things making things smoother.

Joelly Goodson :

So then they're all your partners are your customers as well. So like for brokers in real estate, for example.

Aimee Johnson:

Yes, yes, yes, directly, but

Joelly Goodson :

you know what I mean, right? Yes, yes. 100%. Okay, cool. You mentioned earlier book, the Zestimate. Did I pronounce it right? Yes. In this estimate is how you Zillow is become a household name can you share with the Zestimate is and how it came about?

Aimee Johnson:

Sure. So back in a time machine again, when Zillow launched in about 2006. Not only did it have the information they could get on the houses, they also launched this estimate. In the first three days over a million customers came and it crashed the site on the first day because it was it was the first time there was ever really property valuation available to people that didn't have access to this specific MLS got to see. So it was a really interesting and needed feature that we had. So specifically what is it so it's estimates the home valuation model that gives an estimate of the homeless market value? It's an estimate Zillow estimate Zestimate Yeah, I want to look up estimate in the dictionary. It's not written in stone right. Well, what's interesting about that is we do use a lot of information to create it. So we have public information, MLS information user submitted data, we have a formula that takes into account all the different home facts from you know, your your near a major highway or your electrical pole or you you have a view those kinds of things I'll go in and the nationwide error rate which is super small for his estimate for on market home, so homes that need to sell is only 1.9%. I don't know too many estimates that are that close to like the actual price. Yes, this actual prof market homes error rates about 6.9% And a lot of that is because when your house is off market, you're not paying attention to stuff you're not necessarily fixing things. Oh wait, I redid my Yeah, so now it's four bedrooms instead of three bedroom Wait, no, they didn't put I had a view in there. But I have a 180 degree view. So the better the data on the house, clearly the better the estimate is, right?

Joelly Goodson :

We talk about branding. Branding is about differentiating yourself, right? So what do you do differently than your competitors that has made you so successful?

Aimee Johnson:

Again, there's 200 Different places within this whole moving process. There are steps for getting a mortgage, there's steps for doing a refi, there's steps for looking for a home the steps for getting a home faster than anybody else, there's steps to finding an agent to step. So anywhere, there's more than one company, which there isn't all those places, you're competing for sharing voice. And so Zillow comes in, you know, and I truly believe this, I believe, before it joined, I believe it now is we're really pleased to uncover a dream. Like you could dream about your best self, you could dream about the new job you're going to take in the house, and you're going to be in this class, you know, set up a dream, and a place we come into. And from and differentiators. Yes, you can dream with us, and we're not gonna judge you. And you could do it without telling anyone if you want to, and you could have fun doing it. And how do we allow you to keep that dream alive? Even when it starts getting hard, right? How can we just give you that pre qual on that loan without having any strings attached and see if you get a pre qual, I want you to keep dreaming. If you want to do a remodel, you'll come online and you can look and see how if you approve things that could improve or not your salary. Yeah, so it's about it's coming from the positive place, it's coming from the dream space coming from the you can do it space, where I would say even if you were today and started looking at all the different ads of mortgage companies or real estate companies or other places, it's about the singular thing, right? It's about getting the mortgage or else or being scared. Or if you don't choose the right thing, then Holy smokes, you're not gonna buy another house in 10 years, you're gonna run for the hills, and then you get scared. We're really trying to come up this way more optimistically, and not have a Pollyanna. I mean, it's real, like people say, it's super hard. And change is hard. But like, over 85% of people we surveyed came out the other end, and they're like, Oh, God, it was so worth it. Like it was so worth it. I just wish it wasn't that hard. And so we don't have to go to the depths of making you feel like you don't know what's going on to come out the other end, we really want to come in there from a let's keep the dream alive, folks.

Joelly Goodson :

I love that. Because you know what I mentioned earlier about emotional people crying, I mean, moving, they say, you know, one of the top stressors in your life is mood. And so what I hear from you saying all that is you hope take some of that stress away, and we have enough stress with everything else going on life. So you know what, we're gonna make it easier for you and less stressful for you versus like you were saying about other options that are just factual and data. And here's all this information. But but that doesn't help I want someone to hold my hand and take me and show me right. So I love that. So I can definitely see why that's helped you guys become successful. Zillow has eight core values. And there was one there that really caught my eye. And that was customers are our North Star. So can you share those core values and then maybe elaborate a bit about the customers or north star one, the

Aimee Johnson:

values have been around for leave since the inception of the company, I'd have to go back and double check on that. But they're things like Think Big Move fast. And dG is a team sport, right? We all work together so that things such as that. And one of the ones that we introduced was customers, our Northstar. So we had lots of things on how we interact, how we bring innovation to life and how we come to work as our best selves. And then we needed one as a customer where customer centric, we want to focus on the customer, as I mentioned earlier, so that's customers Northstar. And if you really want to be customer obsessed, you have to get into understanding who the customer is you have to understand the circumstances or to best meet their needs. In order to get the innovation that's really game changing. You have to be walking in their shoes and understand what's the pain point how you solve the pain point? Will they actually use the solution? Can they afford it? Do they find joy in it? And it's not just like one or two people have to understand that right? The engineer that's sitting at their desk coding has to understand that the HR person that is hiring people into the company to hire the people that want to work that way, right? The marketing folks need to understand from where the customers coming in or for the messaging and communications to work, right. So that is a customer's Northstar. And really understanding the customer in a way that we can act in service to them is is really critically important. Hugely important.

Joelly Goodson :

I mean, again, we go back to branding, I mean, that's what it's all about is tapping into what your customers problems are and solving them. And you know, you mentioned earlier, which I thought was great as you asked your customers what they want. You asked about the moving process, you ask them questions, and then they told you what they needed. And then you gave them that right which is exactly what it's all about. There's so many companies out there that they don't know what their customers want. They tell their customers what they want or what they need, but they actually don't give them what they're wanting. So I love that you say that and that your customer is your Northstar because I think that just shows to have a strong brand. You really have to listen to your customers and to be able to connect with them. You have to The problem, right and

Aimee Johnson:

operationalizing that I think it's important like coming from CPG and retail, you know, CPG, you can go walk in the grocery store and see your product on the shelf, you can turn it around, you can go into customers homes, you either using it with retail, you can sit in a retail store and listen by the point of sale, how customers are interacting. When it's more of a tech company, any more hands on, you do have to figure out how do you then operationalize how you understand the customer, again, getting to that engineer, again, the HR representative getting to the marketer, you know, how do you operationalize something like that when the customer you're servicing is really interacting with you mostly online? So that's been interesting to figure out how to do that. Oh, that's

Joelly Goodson :

great. We have a lot of my a lot of my listeners are small business owners and entrepreneurs and solopreneurs. And so as they're listening to this, and you know, you have obviously big budgets and Starbucks had big budgets, what advice would you give for someone who, let's say doesn't have big budgets as far as when it comes to their branding, and making sure that their customer is, you know, again, their North Star, because it really all comes back to the customer? When it comes to branding? It's really about your customers and your audience? Do you have any sort of insight or advice that you would tell someone who might be listening?

Aimee Johnson:

I think the first thing we we used to this is in any meeting or having it can be you and two other people doesn't really matter. have like a quote unquote, or a real open seat at the table for your customer and have an open seat for your employee filter everything you're saying with like, does the customer really care what you're saying? Or is like you're the piano teacher? And will the employee have fun doing what you're asking them to do? Like, you got to be there for both right? And then I would say you have to, really, you have to be really clear on what your brand is, like, if you can't articulate your brand, quickly, no one's going to be able to show what you stand for. So what is it you're gonna stand for, and you can use emotional words, it's okay, you can use colorful words, you could use data words, you can remember everybody's whole brain that's interacting with you, right, they're gonna be right and left brain gonna be introverted and extroverted. They're gonna like structure. And they're like ambiguity, there's all kinds of people out there. So you need to understand what your brand stands for. And then I would think about, well, if my brand stands for these things, this is what I am going to be promising my customer, I promise I will this in what way in this way, then what are all the touch points you can have with your customer, and is your brand promising that in a repeatable way. And then most importantly, most importantly, most importantly, don't promise something you cannot deliver on deliver on the promise don't don't promise your future state, you could promise the dream of your future state. And then you can stairstep your customers to that promise. Just don't promise which can't deliver. So if you if you set your promise up, if you understand how you versus anyone else can deliver on that promise, if you understand and know why your customer thinks that promise is valuable to them. And your employees are happy about delivering that promise to your customer know why you're delivering it. You can do that on any budget. You don't need time to do that. That's just about you being certain and understanding what you have at your at your disposal. And then I would say past that if you're looking to stretch your resources, then it's like, okay, who do you have that in common with? What are some partnerships, you may be able to create, tap into all your friends and your friends, fans and all that kind of stuff, because you'll be starting to be scrappy. So you did that with Tazo tea. It was a very small tea company out of Portland, which was amazing. And you tap into tea lovers, we were in a coffee company, but people like tea that's happened to people that love you, and why are you different and talk to them. Don't talk to people that aren't who you're trying to solve or figure out the partnerships that want to know, you know, if you're scrappy, figure out other people that maybe need you as part of their service. Like there's, there's so many things you could do to try and get scrappy and extend yourself. That's what you have to be you have to you have to know who you are. If you don't know what your brand is, don't differentiate on your promise then that you kind of do I

Joelly Goodson :

That's great advice. I love that. So with that said, Amy, what is the zillo brand? How would you describe that? was coming

Aimee Johnson:

Oh, well. My elevator pitch Sure. Well, as I mentioned, so the new mission is unlocking my next chapter. And because we know that getting into a home, it's more than just a physical dwelling. Right? It's not just the houses like who you are, it's your identity, those kinds of things. And that our homes while their identities and you're moving from one to the next. It's part of growth and evolution. So Zillow, what we want to be is we want to be the most trusted place to imagine play and dream about what's next without judgment. Yeah, back to what you were saying about the dreaming part. So we're dreaming and now we're helping customers feel inspired and supporting them right out the gate. We want to help the customers move forward to help them get unstuck and help them feel confident that they could do this because they could do this they could do that. Shouldn't be as hard as it is.

Joelly Goodson :

That's great. I love it. You know it's funny I what you know you talk about emotional so when people move I moved I was married and then when I my husband I got worse. I moved in. I bought a new house, you know. So all those things you said, and it was stressful and everything, but I tell you, I describe it as my happy place. Right. That's how I describe my new home for many reasons, not just because it's the four walls, but it's everything it stands for. And it's my new home, and it's my happy place. So it's totally an emotional experience.

Aimee Johnson:

I'm glad that that happened. It's funny, because before we were really getting into this whole training thing, and you know, there are people in the room we were talking to, and they have spouses that passed, they had divorces, they foster children and like sad things, because that things happened in your house, too, right? Yeah. And so we definitely don't want to come in with this Pollyanna. Dream big, right? Because that's tone deaf, it could be tone deaf. But the thing we heard over and over and over again, no matter what the happiness was, the tragedy was the different toys or whatever happened was, his swing just said, right? The house is the place that's going to anchor you the hope of the house is the thing that keeps you centered, that your identity is the thing that you can look forward to coming home to or their dream of where you want to be, regardless of the instance the future still looks bright, understanding what the promise of home could be. Yeah, oh, I'm

Joelly Goodson :

sure everybody has stories of people. I mean, I think enough to my mom, when my father died, there's another one he died, she had to sell her house of 36 years 30 Whatever years and move right. It was so emotional. But then her new place is her happy place. You know, like now, but you have you know, you have to go through that journey. So yeah, it's quite a journey. And I love what you guys are doing. I love your brand and what you stand for, and kudos to you for being big part of that and helping them achieve that. So if people want to learn more about you, and about Zillow are you You say you're on are you on social media as well? I mean, what would be the best way for people?

Aimee Johnson:

It's funny. I feel cliche after we just get me on social.

Joelly Goodson :

You I had a, I had a guest that when I asked him about that, you know what his question was? Just tell him to Google me.

Aimee Johnson:

So funny. Yeah. LinkedIn. LinkedIn is probably the best place to reach out to me. And just Amy Johnson. Ai ma me. Yeah. Okay, great. Well, thank you. So golden golden. It's Amy Johnson and an apprentice golden because that was my maiden name. I just switched it coming out here to Seattle.

Joelly Goodson :

So okay, so Amy Johnson golden golden. Yep. Okay, cool. Well, thank you so much. I really think time is like how fast it goes by. Oh, nice to meet you virtually. And thank you again. And we'll have to stay connected now on LinkedIn.

Aimee Johnson:

For sure. For sure.

Joelly Goodson :

Okay. Sounds great. We'll talk to you soon. Okay.

Aimee Johnson:

Okay,

Joelly Goodson :

Bye. And there you have it. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and maybe learned a few things to help you with your branding. And most of all, I hope you had some fun. This show is a work in progress. So please remember to rate and review on whatever platform you listen to podcasts. And if you want to learn more about me and what I do to help my clients with their branding, feel free to reach out to me on any of the social channels under you guessed it, branding, bad. Branding matters was produced, edited and hosted by Joelly. Goodson also. So thanks again and until next time, here's to all you badass is out there.