In this episode I’m sitting down with with Kathy Cheng , one of Inc. Magazine’s Top 100 Female Founders of 2020.
Kathy is the President and Founder of Redwood Classics. You may not recognize the brand, but chances are you’ve seen or even worn their clothing.
Redwood Classic is a leading apparel manufacturer that provides fashion forward, made in Canada clothing to both the retail and promotional products industry.
Kathy is a staunch advocate for diversity in the workplace, and is equally passionate about helping provide opportunities for communities underrepresented in the fashion industry.
I invited Kathy to be a guest on my show to discuss her being named one of Inc. Magazine’s Top 100 Female Founders of 2020. I wanted to get her point of view on why there’s been a growing demand for made in Canada products. And I was curious to learn about her “Maker to Skin” philosophy and what’s at the core of the Redwood Classics brand purpose.
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Hi, I'm Joelly, your branding badass, and welcome to my new podcast branding matters. Today I'm sitting down with Kathy Cheng, the president of redwood classics. You may not recognize the name at first, but chances are you've probably seen or even worn their products because Redwood classics is a leading apparel manufacturer who provides fashion forward made in Canada products to both the retail and promotional products industry. Kathy was recently named one of ink magazine's top 100 female founders of 2020. Not only is she a staunch advocate for diversity in the workplace, but Kathy is equally passionate about helping provide opportunities for communities. underrepresented in the fashion industry. I invited Kathy to be a guest on my show today to talk about the redwood classic brand, and why there's been such a growing demand for made in Canada products recently. I also wanted to learn about her maker to skin philosophy, and what's at the core of their brand purpose. Kathy, welcome to branding matters. Thank you, Julie for having me. It's a pleasure. Oh, it's so nice to have you here. Congratulations on your being named one of ink magazine's top 100 female founders in 2020. Were you surprised? Thank you, Julie. Yes, I was incredibly surprised. I actually thought it was wrong. You're kidding. I thought it was spam. I'm like, is this?Kathy Cheng:
How do you find out? I actually thought it was, well, not spam. But I just thought like, is this wrong? Like?Joelly Lang:
Why are too I guess? So? Did you actually like how did you get nominated? I guess and then how did you find out? And can you tell us what it was for? Well, last year I was I was included in one of their female founders report. We You know, I think we got on their radar with the the fact that we're meeting Canada. And I've been very active in the diversity and inclusion space, especially in supplier diversity. And I had met the editor of ink magazine years back, actually, when I was in the year that I was inducted in the UI winning women program, which is another women focused program for entrepreneurs. And she I guess your eye we filled out some surveys they asked us to you know the class to fill out surveys and kind of going through data. And then last year she they reached out and they said we noticed that you you have a number like a high percentage of female working in your business. Then we went on to talk about you know, Redbook classics and how everything is made in Canada. So we were in their report from 2019. And earlier this year, they just reached out and say, you know, how's your business doing? And I shared that during the midst of the pandemic, we did a quick pivot to actually contribute to our community. If you recall, you know, during March, everything shut down and there was trade shut down. There was just no supplies of anything. were made in Canada. We have, you know, raw material, we have the equipment and we were able to quickly pivot and we started making reusable premium facemask. We answered a call to a local health care network by the name of Michael garron. Hospital, and they challenged the community asking home sowers to donate it within a week 1000 reusable mass. And this was before the CDC or Health Canada recommended mass, right? This is where I'm going to put in a little bit of that diversity play because a number of our makers and our factory myself, I'm of Asian descent. And if you recall, back in the day with SARS, Asia got hit pretty hard. So I would say, you know, as much as this pandemic, it originated out of Asia, we were well aware of it and our factory, we actually started quarantining all the way back in December Really? Yeah, we had made reusable premium mass for our own makers and to donate to our own supply chain. before it was even asked, you know, in Asia, if you're not feeling well, it's very typical to see on the streets, people wearing masks, right. But it's really not a North American thing to do. So for us, when you know, the numbers started getting higher, we were just making it for ourselves and for our own supply chain partners or local supply chain partners. And then when we saw that call out for Michael Guerin hospital, I actually called the president and we said, okay, let us help. And so within a few days, we donated 1000 mass and that just kind of kick started the whole philanthropic program. So if you go on our website now, we've donated over $100,000 worth of retail premium mass, and that's all through our philanthropic so we're not selling mass on our website to make money. NoKathy Cheng:
It's not that at all. We're an apparel maker. That's what our focus on. But through that program realized how much impact we can make. And we've been very transparent. So if you go on the website, you'll see all the nonprofits that we've donated to, from children's services to Alberta Health Care network to a couple of indigenous groups as well. So the program really expanded not realizing the impact that we were able to make until things started to settle. And we've decided to just continue that impact. And I always say this, and it's become so apparent during COVID. If you don't support your local businesses, you don't support your local community domestic supply chain partners during a crisis, how are they supposed to support the community? How are they supposed to? How are we supposed to support our own citizens as an example, Redbook classics and promotional product industry, when we first joined, I'd go to a trade show. And I still remember my first trade show. And I give a lookbook and say everything is made in Canada, and people would look at me like I was an alien three heads. Like they just couldn't believe I know, making stuff domestically. And we've been doing that now probably for 32 years. And I always felt especially in branding, you know, you've got major fortune 500 companies, or just major corporations that spend so much money on marketing and branding, the brand, the logo, the colors are just as important as the medium in which you put it together. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I, from the very beginning and train into the promo industry saw that niche, it was also in the height of fast fashion, it was what's the cheapest? What's the quickest, and I noticed that there weren't a lot of products, they call it quality. But the quality wasn't really quality. It's relative. So relative to the promo industry, where everyone is was selling on price, price price and not the value of a product. But it was just what's the cheapest, but like, we believe that we know, we're not the cheapest out there, but it's filled with value. That's great. So let's go back to family came over from Hong Kong. What year was that? Late 70s, late 70s. And so came over here, you and your mom and your dad, you have siblings? No, I'm the only one.Joelly Lang:
So the three of you came over and then what what did you do? Did you get right into the business or you I mean, you guys didn't have a lot when you came over? Did you know we were very, very humble beginnings. I remember I was a latchkey kid at the age of five, my dad used to work three jobs when he first came to Canada. I was doing he was a cutter by day. So to answer your question. Prior to coming to Canada, we've always been in textiles. So my grand uncle owned a factory in Hong Kong. And that's actually what my parents met. Okay. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'll say like textiles is always good in our blood. Yeah. And ABC, the redwood classics brand. We do say three generations of textile excellence. And the third first generation was my grandfather from my dad's side, my dad's side of the business. I mean, my dad's side of the family. They were in textiles back in Hong Kong. So he was an apprentice in Hong Kong in the cutting department. And so you know, he was there, right? My mom was a seamstress. Oh, nice. Okay, when they came to Canada, this is why did they come to Canada for a better life or better life? Right. My I had, I think my grandmother from my dad's side was coming as well. And very, very humble beginnings. I still remember like, I always say you don't know how it feels to be hungry until you've been hungry. And I've been fortunate enough that perhaps I wasn't literally hungry. But so they show here, they struggle. They struggled. And so then how did they so then tell me So when did they decide to start? The company? They started in 1988. Okay, my dad, his brother and his sister. So it really is a family business. My brother and sister, my aunt and uncle, the three of them decided to start this small sewing contracting company. And we started Yeah, that's how it all started. And we made for at that time, an iconic Canadian brand name. That was our first one and then our second brand name. Can you say who it is? Probably not. That's fine. I was gonna say it because I know who but I know.Kathy Cheng:
It's now a publicly traded. Well, let's just say it's probably was probably one of the most popular brands in the 80s. And everybody I knew was wearing their stuff. So amazing. That was your first big customer. Yeah. And then the second one, and well, the first big customer is now a America is now an American owned brand. And it is a global brand as well. And our second big brand name is now a publicly traded company. And we're really amazing. We are still supply like a legacy supply chain partner for them. Hmm, that's their mission Canada products, five employees to 500 employees and, you know, these huge brands that everybody knew that we can't say, but we know who they are. They're amazing. Yeah. And 2008 hits. So talk about 2008 and how that affected your family and your business. I mean,Joelly Lang:
With your pricing being high and the recession happening, how did that affect your business? Well, the business landscape, just we It was really hard to compete. It was really, really challenging to compete because we had grown to a larger scale. Right. And so when we restructured that's why we went to 40. People, I must have been hard. Thank you, it was more humbling than it was. But at the same time, it was wonderful, because everyone that we asked to join and restructure with us came along for the ride. That's great. So you went through 2008, and you restructure, so you went from 500 employees down to 40 employees? And so tell me about your dad. So your dad asked you to be his business partner was that during this time, or after this time when you were looking at restructuring? And what was your initial thought about that? And did you want to do it? Or did you have hesitation? Working with a parent? It could be challenging, right?Kathy Cheng:
I mean, you're the daughter, maybe there was a lot of pressure on you. I don't know what sir, let's put it this way. In 2008. I wasn't really familiar or aware. Say you weren't sorry, you weren't familiar, or were with what what was going on in the business or in the world was that? I wasn't like, I didn't realize it was that challenging impact? Right. Okay, which was the global financial recession? Yeah, I know. That's what I was saying. Right. That's when I mean, you and millions of other people, right? Yeah. So yeah, but I know that was a pivotal time for you, because you talk about the restructuring of the company, and then creating the new company. So we create. So the restructure happened in 2009. So January, 2009, okay, we became business partners, but prior to becoming business partners, when he asked me, I still remember, I was really hesitant. I was like, Oh, you know, my, my passion has always been in events. I don't know why I always wanted to do crazy stuff, you know, 10 million balls up in the air, kind of, and I know me too. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, that's really the promo industry if you think about it, too. And I, you know, in the podcasting, and everything else, I mean, it's Yeah, I like to have a lot of things going on at the same time. It keeps life interesting. I've many you'reJoelly Lang:
trying to be but so he asked you to be his partner? And did you say Yes, right away? Or did you have Did you pause to decide whether or not it's something you want to do, I paused. And I share this moment, because I call it my aha moment after he had asked me and I remember going back to the factory word got out that we may not be around anymore, we may not have the factory anymore. And it feels like just yesterday where you could sense the motions on the factory floor. I don't know if it was in my imagination. I feel like I heard sobbing, it was just really, this moment. And I remember standing there and it hit me like a ton of brick. And I went Holy smokes, I have to do this. It's not about me, I realized and i and i thought back about all these amazing opportunities I've had, I have an education, because of our makers, I came to this country and I realized I had this phenomenal life because of the factory because of this business. And so the aha moment when it like it just all hit me at the same time. You decided to um, I was like, I gotta do this. 2008 was a pretty pivotal year, not only because of the financial recession, it was also you know, I got married that year, and it was just all these things that were happening and then 2009 hit and then we just put our head down. I still remember when we restructured the reason why Redwood classics and in the logo everything is made in Canada and we've always said made in Canada's that is the reason why we restructured was to be able to continue to build job restarted Redbook classics. Everything had to be made in Canada, I discovered the secret industry, promotional product industry. So where did you come up with the name? What was the birth name from we've seen a lot of racial injustice that has that's probably been bubbling. And the reason why it's Redwood classics, and I mean, it doesn't sound Chinese, right. And you got to remember when we first launched, it's in the middle and the height of fast fashion, which everyone was associating with China, I'm of Chinese descent. So if we came to market with a name that was close to our culture, like we came to read the classics, because the name does not sound Chinese. It was hard enough to be coming to market fighting against fast fashion were our brand. And what we wanted to do was all about slow fashion. It was about quality. It was about value. It was about the country of origin, right? And all the people that get to touch and are part of this journey, I can now share this and I didn't actually share this until this year that because I'm ashamed and I should be ashamed. But I now feel that I have the courage you're ashamed Tippie that you're Asian or ashamed that you didn't share the story, but the name Oh, I wasn't ashamed to be Asian, but I was. Now like, I think back to the impetus for the eyewitness shows I was personally ashamed, but I didn't want to be in that stigma. Yeah, that's, well, I appreciate you sharing that today. I mean, that's very brave of you andKathy Cheng:
No, I agree with you, I love the fact that we are more people are feeling less shame and speaking up about things. And a great name is a great name and your logos great. Tell me about the redwood classic Brown, we know where the name came from. And that in itself is an amazing story. So let's talk about the brand because you're so passionate about your brand, I would say it's people planet and profit. You know, the truth is, I got into this business and became my dad's business partner because of our makers because of my family, you know, so it's to provide for people planet, the fact that we're meeting Canada, like we were trying to minimize the carbon footprint. And I'm really proud to say from being everything made in Canada to over the years, we've continued to find different ways to reinvesting into the supply chain reinvesting into your business. So we're at a point right now we're close to 65% of the fabric, and raw material that we consume at our factory level is needed within 100 miles radius of us. So we have been able to minimize the carbon footprint, we're constantly trying to look inside our own operations and see how we can minimize the impact. So people planet and profit, we still need to turn a profit, I think that's something that's really important is as much as you have purpose is what I believe is everyone has to be able to put food on the table. So one of the things that I've been very passionate about, and why I initially started doing a lot of volunteer work for the fashion industry, is I wanted to be a voice I wanted to be able to help makers, regardless of where they are located. I hope people will realize the country of origin where the products come from is really important because that important to you, you know, let's say this farm to table as as society now we are now celebrating farmers, right? We celebrate local farmers farm to table recognizing and appreciating their hard work on the field in order to provide for us in our stomach and we consume it. How about your clothing? When was the last time you ever thought about the person or the maker? So I always say like your maker to skin, we celebrate farm to table? Why don't we celebrate maker to skin? So that's an interesting concept. Do you think a lot of people get that a? How is the industry? How is your industry specifically change? Because as the economics have changed, the world is changing. You know, COVID has had a huge impact. Everybody now is all about like Buy Local and shop local. And you know, it's going that way? How do you think that there has been a shift in the consumer and our market? I can tell you from my experience, I've had more my customers request more made in Canada products, right? And so they come to me and they go we want made in Canada and I come to you and like Kathy, I need some money. Right? So do you find that change? Do you think that's grown in the last several years, and especially in the last eight months, let's say we're definitely seeing a trend, I think it's a lot about it is education. So for us as an example, if you go on our website, we produced a series called meet the maker series, it's not about why you should buy from us, I want you to meet the people behind it. Because we don't look into that enough. On social every Friday, we do a hashtag factory Friday. And these are things that I'm hoping we can be transparent about. So I want to talk about how you went from the retail world to the promo world. So we got into this business through a dear friend and I would call him mentor as well, while he Richards from Casey Capps. And he had known of us and our business. And he's known my dad for a number of years. And I started getting more and more calls from end users that would say, I bought this sweatshirt, you know, 10 years ago, washed it a billion times. And I love it, I want to get more and I looked up your ca number so you're seeing is your manufacturer identification number that you can go on the website and figure out like who really is your manufacturer. And at that time, we never had a brand. We just you know, we had the products that we made that was not if it wasn't for a brand name, or retail brand name, it would just have RCA number onto it. So I started getting more and more of those calls. And I realized I was like, wait, this is crazy. Even if it's a niche market. There is a demand there is a niche demand for products that are made in Canada that are at the level of quality that we produce. And so it was also a great way for us to normalize our business. Remember, we're a private label factory, so we're kind of like the tire maker that makes for good year and for Michelin, okay, but we do that for apparel for premium sweats and teas and you know, joggers, so I remember when Sorry, I want to just comment on that because I remember when I first met you I mean I've been in this business 20 years if you can believe it, like it's not crazy, but you started when you were five. Yeah, exactly. Same with you.Joelly Lang:
And I remember when I first met you and heard about your company, and I know we can't say the brand, but and you told me that you were the same supplier for this humongous retail brand that we all know and loved. And that was so impressive, right? I mean, right there. And then I was like, because I love their quality, like you talked about. And, you know, it's interesting, because retail, I'm gonna want a bit of attention for one second, but retail can offer like this company particular, they can charge that amount for their hoodies, and sweatshirts, and people bought it, people are trying to figure out who this company is,Kathy Cheng:
for that logo. But beyond that, I mean, I probably still have one of their sweatshirts from 20 years ago. You know, it's probably ours. It is. But that's I'm saying it isn't one thing that we're talking about that we had, say, bringing that to the promo world for you, you say it was a niche market. But I mean, you don't have a lot of competitors in your particular lane. Because of any competitors. We didn't make it if you take in the fact that made in Canada at this level of quality, we had zero competitors. And that's why people thought I was crazy. And they would cap like pricing crazy. Because your pricing was crazy. Crazy. It was made in Canada, they'd be like what you can make it? Yeah, not like we have it in our logo. It says Redwood classics made in Canada all incorporated, like yeah, it's all all encompassing in one logo. Yeah. And that's all we talk about. And that's your brand, isn't it? That was our brand, it still isn't the brand. But people I still remember even a few years ago, even like today, people will call and say so is your everything is made in Canada, just because it's a rarity. It is a rarity. Absolutely. It is a rarity. Yeah. And so how do you come to market provide at this level made in Canada, and I'm gonna go back to people planet and profit. It's about how much impact we can make. We're about to launch our publish our 10 year made in Canada impact report. And through that we've been able to quantify including our business, our direct employment, and our local supply chain employment over 500 jobs, what is the socio economic impact? And I believe if I remember the stats correctly, because I haven't I still if we have to publish it, but if I believe 70% of the staff within the 500 jobs are underrepresented groups, so either people of color or women, what is the socio economic impact that will make conscious consumption is all we're asking people to do? That's great. And that's a nice little segue into what I was going to ask you about as far as connecting with your audience. Because really, that's what a good brand does is they connect with their audience, we, we want to work with people that we have the same values with, we want to buy from people who have the same values with and so by connecting, you know, not everybody's going to care, there's going to be people that are gonna want the cheapest hoodie out there. And there's a market for that, right? And there's gonna be people out there, but the ones that do care and share the same values as you and you're connecting with them. That's a strong brand. And that's why I brought you on here because I feel like you do have a strong brand. When when I asked you and you're like me,Joelly Lang:
humble because of that, because you have you guys do a phenomenal job of connecting with your tribe. And I think that group of people is growing and growing and growing. And right now with what's going on in the world. That's why I was curious to ask you if it's changed, because I'm getting a lot more of demand for Canadian made, it's more important to the consumer, when they are picking a brand and buying a brand. They want to know what's behind the brand. And they want to know what your values are and what your brand purposes, it's curious to know. What do you think the post COVID world is going to look like for you with everything that's been going on? How do you feel that's going to impact you in the future of the redwood classics? Brett, I hope that we're inspiring other brands to really dig deep. I love that why you exist and highlight and bring those values to the table. I also believe that diversity again, I'm going to go back to the discussion. I said now I feel 2020 has allowed the permission to peek behind the brand and want to know who's behind the brand? Well, I think there's demand for it actually. Yeah. And the consumer. So I would say companies need to realize the value of diversity. So you done it, you do a ton of volunteer work. You mentioned that, you know you you've been given accolades for that, and you're very passionate about diversity and helping and so one of the ones that stood out, but we talked briefly about was the LGBTQ Plus, you got the ambassador of the Year award. Can you share what that was about and what you do for that community or what your involvement is, I should say. So essentially, I was exposed to the supplier diversity world through eBay, Ernst and Young. In 2014. I got inducted into their class of eBay winning women, which is a entrepreneurial program. It's an award and entrepreneurial program, an evergreen program, identifying 12 high growth potential women owned businesses, amazing. gratulations. That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you. It was the biggest honor but it was I still remember going to the orientation.Kathy Cheng:
felt like I didn't belong. A big part of it is I'm I've never had an elevator pitch, I remember going there. And we were asked to all do an elevator pitch in front of an intimate group of, you know, I think it was like 40 to 50 people. And I went up there. And at that time, if you asked me what I did, I would say, I make t shirts, sweatshirts and track pants, and I do it all in Canada. And then you'd have to ask me more questions. And I would tell you what I do. And so I'm at this event, I'm supposed to go and give an elevator pitch. I don't even really know what an elevator pitch was, obviously, I don't have one. And by the time it was like, I tried, I think it was like seven times up there. And by the seventh time, I just was bawling. And I couldn't place why. Not only was I embarrassed because I didn't really know what I was doing. And I felt very unrefined. Also, I didn't know what the feeling was, I just didn't feel like I belonged. I felt like an imposter. I have a dear friend by the name of Phyllis Newhouse, who happens to be a person of color as well. And she's an alum. And she came up to me that evening at during cocktails, and it feels like just yesterday, she did this, but she literally took me by the shoulder. And she said, you look at me, Kathy, you belong here. I know how you feel. You walk into a room and you look around, and you don't look anything like that. But let me tell you, you belong here, you have earned your place to be here. And that was so impactful. And that I would say that was part of the journey and helping me find my own voice and realizing like I have value to give to Don't get me wrong, I still have this crazy imposter syndrome. But we all do, right? I mean, yeah, I think so. Thank you. Lord, the more people I talk to you, the more stories I hear everyone's like, they're gonna figure me out soon enough. You're gonna know the real me and what am I doing here? But I think you're right. It keeps you humble in the beginning of it. And so through that program, I was also sponsored to go to webank, which is this, the largest women owned business conference in the US and realize Holy smokes, like the supplier diversity thing is a real thing. Right? Okay. So why the LGBTQ plus community? Because it's in Canada, so the LGBTQ se, as I'll just I, you know what the reason I asked because so I'm a parent of a gay son, part of my son I share about him, he's also has his online event. And so I'm invested in that because of my connection. So I'm just curious. So I mean, there's like everything you've talked about, there's so many different groups that you have an attachment to, and I'm just curious to know that why that community is on there. Because when I read that, I'm like, Oh, that's so cool. So it's, it's really because I'm involved with the supplier diversity community in Canada. In Canada, we have the SDC, which is supplier diversity Alliance Council. And within that Council, there are different marginalized groups. And within one of those groups would be you know, Aboriginal minority There is also disabled, there's veterans, and there's also the LGBTQ plus community. Okay, so they're part of that their Park, but I was wondering, okay, so so they're considered a diverse, like, they are diverse, you know, they're marginalized. Let's be honest. Oh, yeah, there are not always heard. And so they're part of, you know, those marginalized voices want to support all marginalized voices wherever we can. And I guess, you know, that was a big surprise and a huge honor. huge honor, because I'm not, you know, I'm not part of the community. But I'm being recognized for the efforts and the work that we're all putting in to level the playing field. That's great. So Wow, I mean, you're such an interesting person, Kathy, I could talk to you forever and ever and ever. Because this show is called branding matters. And we talk about all things branding, why does branding matter to you so much. I think branding is it's like the window to your soul. It's the window to your culture, in my humble opinion. So branding isn't just a name, it isn't just a logo, its values and it's the alignment of values. It's the logo and the color and all of that and the font type like type font that's that's just something that's tangible. Branding is a is a window to your brand or your company soul. I love that thing. I don't think anybody's ever asked me that before. So that was just really on the spot. I know but but you know, you're dead on I mean, brand is your reputation. It's how you make people feel or I'm in the branding business because I sell swag. But realistically, I do much more than that. When I work do you work with my clients, they have certain values they want Canadian made and so you know, it's it's marrying their brand with my suppliers brand and bringing it together you alignment. Exactly. It's the alignment and so that I was just curious to ask you because you do have a really strong brand and based on everything you talked about with your convictions and your passion. That sums it up really nicely. I like the way you said that. I'm going to write that down somewhere. Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day. I'd really appreciate it if anybody wants to learn more about Kathy Chang and read workplaceJoelly Lang:
Classic's what would be the best way for them to connect with you. I would say follow us on social. So on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, at Redwood classics, classics with an S. And then myself. It's Kathy Chang always welcome to have conversations because it's different people in different industries, I believe is how we learn from each other. And that's how it fuels innovation. Can you tell us what's coming down for 2021? Or do we have to wait?Kathy Cheng:
No, I would say, yes. Someone just asked me what trends do we see? Yeah, that will filter down from retail or I would say, you know, streetwear, influential design brands to promo and I would say there's three things the new work from home power suit, I call it the power suit, which is the hoodie and the sweats is that it that's your power suit, your new power suit. And we already started seeing that trend. And we knew that was happening because in tech, it's no longer a jacket and shirt, right? It's a lot of what's your nice premium hoodie put on a good pair of joggers, and really cool shoes that we already knew. And we're seeing as a tech kind of power suit. Now with everybody working with a lot of people working from home. Now that's like the power suit. The next one, I would say is garment dye. So there's a lot of garment dye that you're seeing in the marketplace, vintage dyes like high lows, different colors, being able to custom dye that's really, really big. And then the third trend that we see that I foresee will be coming down, it would be sustainable all over prints. So it's using sustainable ways to execute all over prints and let it be in an accent or the actual whole product in the hoodie. I think that's something that's unique and different. If you're in promo and you want to service I would say more fashion forward and or more young, relevant brands. That's something to pay attention to free. I love it. That sounds awesome. Thank you for those little sneak peeks. I look forward to seeing those in action. Thank you again, Kathy. It's been a pleasure talking to you. And I look forward to seeing you again soon in person. Yes in person. And take care and we'll talk to you again soon. Okay. Thanks, Julie.Joelly Lang:
And there you have it. Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and maybe even learned a few things that will help you with your branding. And most of all, I hope you had some fun. This podcast is a work in progress. So please make sure to rate and review what you think. And please subscribe to branding matters on whatever platform you listen to. And if you want to learn more about the branding badass, that's me. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn under you guessed it, branding badass. Thanks again and until next time, here's to all you badasses out there.