Branding Matters

David Avrin - Provide The Customer Experience Advantage

January 08, 2021 Branding Badass Season 1 Episode 5
Branding Matters
David Avrin - Provide The Customer Experience Advantage
Show Notes Transcript

My guest today is David Avrin; the author of the celebrated marketing books: It’s Not Who You Know It’s Who Knows You! And Visibility Marketing! And his latest book: Why Customers Leave (and How to Win Them Back) was named in Forbes as “One of the 7 Business Books Entrepreneurs Need to Read.”

A former CEO group leader and executive coach with the world’s largest chief executive organization, David has helped thousands of CEOs and business leaders with their brands. This rock star (yes he used to be in a band) is one of the most in-demand Customer Experience and Marketing Keynote Speakers and Consultants in the world today. 

I invited David to be a guest on my show to discuss the recent shift in customer mindset and expectations. I also wanted to get his point of view on why customer experience is important to the success of a brand and why being good at what you do is no longer good enough.

💥IF YOU WANT HELP GETTING YOUR CLIENTS TO FALL IN LOVE WITH YOUR BRAND,  REACH OUT TO ME ON SOCIAL AT BRANDING_BADASS OR EMAIL ME AT JGOODSON@GENUMARK.COM

Joelly Lang:

Hi, I'm Joelly, you branding badass. Welcome to m new podcast branding matters. M guest today is David averin David is the celebrated autho of The Marketing books. It's no who you know, it's who know you, and visibility marketing And his latest book wh customers leave and how to wi them back was named in Forbes a one of the seven business book entrepreneurs need to read. He' a former CEO, group leader an executive coach with the world' largest chief executiv organization, and has helpe 1000s of CEOs and busines leaders with their brands. Thi Rockstar, yes, he used to be i a band. And I'll get to tha this Rockstar is one of the mos in demand customer experienc and marketing keynote speaker and consultants in the worl today, he delivers profoun wisdom to clients and audience with a surprisingly relatable conversational and ver entertaining style. I am s thrilled and honored t introduce to you Mr. Davi averin. David, welcome t branding matters

David Avrin:

you think that I wrote that myself?

Joelly Lang:

Yeah, you would think?

David Avrin:

Wow, you're so generous, what? What kinds of things to say, I spent hours load for you to say, there you go. Listen, we've been sort of following each other for some time. And you know, me and I know you and what a great opportunity for us to meet face to face and voice to voice and and have a good conversation. So thanks for having me on the show.

Joelly Lang:

Well, you're welcome. And you know, I agree with you. It's funny, you talk about following each other. It's funny how you can kind of get to know someone, I mean, on social media on a certain level, but you know, as you see them go through. And that's a big part of why I wanted to do this podcast, it's a big passion, passion project of mine is to sort of help people with their social media and their marketing and everything. And you

Unknown:

know, what's interesting is we sort of get to know each, I guess, the parts of our lives that we want other people to know. But I think it's a big part of the whole branding, as well as being intentional about what you share. And it's not really about creating an image. That's that's contrary to who you are. I mean, certainly authenticity is such a big part. But I've been accused of oversharing. But I love that line that says if you want people to be interested, you have to be interesting. And so yeah, I work hard that the things that I share the things that keep people engaged, right, it's all part of it. You know, we know we've been talking for a long time, you know, that people do business with people they like and people they know and people they trust. And I think the more authentic you are in your sharing, I think it draws people and I think it did drew us to each other. So we've sort of been fans from afar.

Joelly Lang:

Well, that's very nice of you to say, and I agree. So speaking of being authentic, and getting to know you, who is the real David aphrem. You know, before we get into talking about branding, and all your incredible expertise and tips that you're going to share, I'd like to, for people to get to know and myself a little bit No, but who is the person behind the personality? Who

Unknown:

is what makes him tick? What makes him tick examples, we come back,

Joelly Lang:

right? You know, we're I mean, where are you from? Can you give us a really quick

Unknown:

synopsis, you know, I live just south of Denver, Colorado, and in Castle Rock, which is kind of nice being sort of centrally located, because I travel around the world are spoken in 24 countries and being able to go most places with maybe one connection, I think makes it really easy. But you know, I'm somebody who grew up as a performer, which was, which is kind of interesting. So, and I know that your family has a little bit of that love and background as well. I acted, I sang I sang in a band, I went to college on a full ride theater scholarship. And so way back

Joelly Lang:

when I was Gosh, he must be really good. Well, you know,

Unknown:

I think it was more of the fact that they looked at me said, Oh, we've got somebody to play our old authority. But he was 19 years old with a deep voice. And you know, as they're putting on shows, it's like, well, who's gonna play, you know, the 70 year old who's gonna play the 50 year old. And so we got somebody with a deep voice. So it's kind of funny. And then after a few years, I realized that I didn't want to be doing community theater in God's wrath, Iowa, when I'm 60 years old. And so I actually need to support a wife and family. So I actually changed my major and ended up studying broadcast journalism. So when you have a deep voice, people like wow, you should be in radio. So I went worked at the radio, I did local radio, in college, and then in broadcasts, so I was sort of do did news, writing and all of that. And then when I left school, I actually went to my friends in the media, they said, I went to the dark side, and I became a PR flack and so many of my years in public relations and marketing. And I sort of honed my skills in how do we communicate who we are and what we do in a meaningful and profound way that actually spurs some level of action. So that was sort of my, my formative years, and then ultimately after 911 when everything kind of went To help I

Joelly Lang:

remember where you were 911 speaking of

Unknown:

Oh, yeah, I was trying to think I was actually on the really off topic. But no, no, no. Yeah, I was actually traveling around the state of Colorado with my assistant, we were each in our own hotel rooms doing research for one of my clients for the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, they were doing some education on chewing tobacco, we were actually going around interviewing people on public education. And I remember my my wife calling and saying, turn on the TV. And so, but that was where my early years was sort of helping organizations differentiate themselves. So I was getting clients on Good Morning America, and today's show, and Oprah and Sports Illustrated, and everything else. And you

Joelly Lang:

meet Oprah,

Unknown:

I did not. But I had a great opportunity of working with the teams amazing to pitch my clients. Yeah. And so ultimately, I just realized, I love doing this so much. But I found that there's an opportunity to teach others how to do this. And so I started speaking, and I realized that, you know, you can actually get paid to speak to organizations and teach them what you know. And so 2001, I think, was my first paid presentation. And so, in the last 20 years, I've done it 1000s of times to that many organizations in 24 countries. And so it's just been a really remarkable opportunity for me to connect with organizations of every kind, and help their people better differentiate themselves to talk about us the way we want them to talk about us. And that's what led to my most recent book, which is why customers leave and how to win them back. And now we're, I think we're in our sixth language. in Vietnamese. It's in Chinese, it's in Spanish, it's in Russian. That's crazy. But yeah, it's fun.

Joelly Lang:

That's great book, I want to go back, you know, you talk about your theater. It's funny how you go sort of, if you look at sort of the the journey of your life and how you were in theater, and you did really well. And now you're a speaker, I mean, talk about taking all those transferable skills from theater, to now being a public speaker, what would you say were the best things that you learn that you now use today in your career? Well, you know,

Unknown:

I think it's valuable for anybody. That's where things like Toastmasters and things like that anybody who can stand and deliver their thoughts, their ideas in front of a group of people, it doesn't mean everybody's going to be a professional speaker. But even in the work setting, to be able to sit around a conference table, and effectively sell your ideas verbally, is an important skill set. Being persuasive is a really crucial skill set in the workplace, if you want to be more than that worker bee. And there's nothing wrong with being a worker bee we need we need that as much if not more than than those who are leading as well. But if you're looking to work your way up, even from a personal branding perspective, being seen as somebody who can effectively and articulately, persuade and deliver their content and their message and their ideas is an incredibly valuable skill set. Yeah, absolutely.

Joelly Lang:

And you know, and you talk about how you say about people talking about you and teaching your customers that skill? I mean, really, isn't that what we talk about what a brand is about? And we've mentioned this before, I mean, your brand is your reputation. It's what you when you're not in the room, right? Think just Jeff Bezos coined that phrase. So that goes back to the whole branding aspect of it.

Unknown:

I think when we do it on a high level, we do a great job. It actually encourages people to talk about us and to become advocates for us online. Otherwise, it's Yelp, it's TripAdvisor, it's Rotten Tomatoes. It's Glassdoor it's all of those types of social proof sites, we know that people who are pissed off, are going to share that information, right. So it's always going to be skewed a little bit negative when you do exactly what you're supposed to do exactly the way they expect you to do what you have met their needs. It's not really to such an extent that they're willing to go out and become advocates for you. And to sing your praises, you kind of have to be better than that. You have to be better than meeting expectations. And so a lot of my message is about how do we become extraordinary, right? How do we become remarkable, as Seth Godin talks about it right in purple cow being remarkable means that you're worthy of being remarked about? What are you doing in your business, in your personal and professional life that would cause somebody to talk about you to someone else,

Joelly Lang:

you know, you talk about in your book being good is no longer good enough?

Unknown:

Right?

Joelly Lang:

You want to elaborate on that?

Unknown:

I think it's the entry fee. I mean, today, I still hear sometimes I'll keynote a conference. And of course, I'm doing a lot of things virtually live and then of course, in person live. But sometimes before I get up, a CEO will give his presentation to the organization and get them all worked up and do a state of the company. But so often they say things like and listen, France remember, at the end of the day, it's about quality. And I'm like, no, it's at the beginning of the day. It's about quality, quality is incredibly important. That's not a differentiator. That's the entry fee. You better be good at what you do or you can't even compete. So at the beginning of the day, it's about quality at the end of the day, it's about competitive advantage. The end of the day, it's not what do you do? Well, what do you do better than others who do it well so as to go back to your point. Being good isn't good enough. I mean, It's just the entry for you you have to be good because if you aren't you'll be outed very quickly. Like I said it's the Yelp is the TripAdvisor and all underperformers are outed on social media. You used to be able to get away with it, you know, back in, in yesteryear, when we all grew up in business, Joey with this, what we used to call guest relations philosophy. That's what they called a guest relations philosophy and it went something like this, right? The average person with a positive experience will tell two or three people, but somebody with a negative experience will tell 10 and everybody's like, Oh, it's like, Are you kidding me? Today? They tell 1000s Yeah, they they tell millions. So the ramifications of underperforming today are profound. He can't get away with anything. So at the very least, you got to be great. But my whole thing and I know your message as well, is about being worthy of being talked about our brand.

Joelly Lang:

Yeah, absolutely. But you know what, you put a tweet on Twitter, this is a true story. I had an issue. I'm not gonna say any names with companies say the names, you know. And you know, and and I was very generous and very gracious when I said it, but I just said, so by the way, I just noticed this, this, this, and I tagged them in my tweet, I'm not even kidding. Within like, 30 minutes, somebody, they they tried back, and they said, we're gonna deal with it. And then they replied back again. And I had this whole tweet back and forth with this company that it got resolved, you know, and that way, I said, you know, who needs customer service? And when you tweet it, they're gonna get back to you like that? Absolutely.

Unknown:

Well, you know, it goes back to there's actually a whole lineage to this, it goes back to the old united breaks guitars. And if you're familiar with the story, and a lot of people, all you do is for everybody listening, just go on YouTube, and search united breaks guitars. So there was this scenario, probably 10 years ago now, where this guy in a band literally, they broke his guitar, and he went through such horrible an ordeal to try and get somebody to pay attention to him and to do right by him. That finally with his band, they wrote a song called united breaks guitars, and they put it online, and they got millions and millions, right. You know, like I said, if you you know, if you think this doesn't get spread, just drag a paying customer off your airplane, you know, you think that united would learn. Because of that, all you have to do is you have a problem. You just hashtag united, somebody will get back to you within 60 seconds. That's how fast they have people who are because they know that every minute that goes by, it gets shared and it gets spread. And then that is the damage can be profound. That one incident where they dragged that poor guy off the airplane, because he didn't want to go Yeah, right before him see that cost them 10s of millions of dollars, they could have paid that guy 10 grand to go take another flight. But it's because of what happens online. So I think it's incumbent upon us as business leaders as professionals to be very clear at eliminating points of friction, because people will share it with every

Joelly Lang:

Absolutely. And you know, on the positive side to that just as much as people share the negative, they will gladly share the positive. There's no better PR. This is another story. I know someone who went to a restaurant and they were just having a business lunch. And the manager came over afterwards and said, You know what, we got your lunches covered. And they both went No, we're good. We got it. And like no, you know, it's tough times right now we just appreciate your business. So we got your lunch. Well, do you know how many times that story has been shared to so many people that are now going to that restaurant, you can't buy that kind of publicity.

Unknown:

I saw something online the other day that Burger King tweeted something and basically said the title of the post, I think was a blog post and then it got shared everywhere else it said please buy from McDonald's. Really? Yeah. And when you read it, it says and go through the drive thru at KFC, and Taco Bell, nobody, we need your help. As an industry, we need you to support us during this pandemic. Of course, a brilliant marketer Of course, right? Great marketers they get because they get credit for being altruistic of saying, Listen, support our industry, even if you support our competitors, and all of those as well. It goes back to the old line that says if you want people to talk about you give them something to talk about do something that's that's extraordinary. That's out of the ordinary. And it's not about one offs. I mean my whole thing with customer experiences, it's not about wow moments, I think you can create them that's great. Those will those will spread but sometimes today is just being remarkably easy to do business with you people want to get there quickly and they love you.

Joelly Lang:

And sometimes you know you talk about the wow moments. I mean while moments don't have to be fireworks and big things they can be little things you know I recently sent a little thank you card to a lot of my customers with a little gift in it and it was little like a little something. And I'm getting thank yous for the thank you card, right like crazy,

Unknown:

because it's out of the ordinary, right? It's the things that the people are no longer doing can bring you great attention. One of the great ways to make customers happy is to offer things that your competitors no longer do. Right You see that on like Southwest Airlines, right? The things that everybody else, they don't have blankets, they don't have drinks, they don't have food or whatever else and sometimes or even free bags. For crying out loud, some of those kinds of things, they can be extra ordinary because you're doing what other people don't. You look at the grocery stores now they try and they try and the social engineering, they're trying to push you to self checkout. And everything else I was at Walmart, there's one close to my house, I got a shopping cart full of groceries. overfilling. At the top, I get to the front, and the manager tries to directly to self checkout. And I'm like, oh, sorry, I don't work here. You know, I'm not being demeaning. I'm bad at this. I'm like, there is never an item that is easy. An unexpected item in the bagging area will take me an hour, they could do in five minutes. But they'll come back and they'll say no, no, but we give our customers choice. It's not a choice. Come on. We have one staff lane with nine carts and 28. self checkout. It's social engineering. One of the biggest mistakes in my book, why customers leave is companies that try to push you to do business with them the way they want you to do business with them. And the smart companies will do business the way you want to do business with them.

Joelly Lang:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, you talk about in your book where you say, Don't treat me like I want to be treated treat me like you want to be treated. Right, exactly. Well, I

Unknown:

mean, we grew up with the golden rule from mom and dad is this you do unto others as you would have them do unto you just treat people like you want to be treated. As if it's that simple. I got a 17 year old son, he's working, his manager tells him just treat people like you want to be treated, and he thinks his job is done. Well, guess what? I'm not a 17 year old boy. Yeah, I'm a 57 year old old guy, you probably just got off three, air 57

Joelly Lang:

is an old by the way. So

Unknown:

I just got off 32 hours coming back from Dubai. And I walk in the restroom, I don't want to be treated like he wants to be, I want to be treated like I want to be treated. So I love that the Platinum rule. And the Platinum rule rule says Do unto others as they would have done unto themselves. In other words, don't treat them like you want to be treated, treat them like they want to be treated you for that it requires some work, you got to look deeper, to become customer centric, which is not customer focus, everybody's customer focused. But customer centric means that you really take the time to understand your customer on a deeper level.

Joelly Lang:

So what is the difference? That's a good point. What is customer facing customer centric?

Unknown:

It's it's almost the difference between customer service and customer experience your customer service, we get that right? It's just we've been talking about for 30 years you treat people well, right? Yeah, customer experiences difference. How does it to do business with you? How easy is it to reach a real person? How intuitive how flexible? Are you customer? Focus just means everything we do we hear this all the time from leaders Listen, for us. It's all about the customer. What the hell does that mean? Yeah, of course, you're in business. Who else is it about? Right? For us? The customer comes first before what are lunch? Me it's a meaningless phrase for us, our customer comes first year in business, that's just stupid. I mean, of course it does. But customer centric is different. It just means product centric means that we're really good at what we do. That's sort of the basis. But customer centric means we're not only are we good at what we do, but we so understand our customers on a deeper level, we understand their pressures, we understand their choices, we understand what a day in the life of our customer looks like we understand who they report to what are their constraints, the things that they would love, if we would do because it would it would make their life easier. They fear in terms of our underperformance, we all have gravitated towards the demographics and the psychographics. But if you look deeper into what's happening in particular communities, and what's happening within industries, if you're selling b2b, what are some of the pressures, you know, during the pandemic, everybody's really cognizant of what this time has meant for them in their business and their families. But the smart companies are becoming very clear of what this has meant to their customers in their practice shifting priorities and their preferences, and their constraints and their fears. Because that influences they buy and who they buy from. That's customer No,

Joelly Lang:

absolutely. You know, you hear this phrase, and I'm sorry if I'm gonna offend people out there. But you know, we're all in this together. And I sort of have a little bit of a love hate relationship with that, because reality is, you know, you see these influencers or these celebrities and they're on their yachts drinking their champagne, and you see the headline, we're all in this together, you know, and then there's a single mom with two kids and she's not working and how is that in it together? I

Unknown:

we're not all in this together. First of all, we are completely divided in a major way. But also in terms of the winners and losers and the haves and have nots are profound. I mean, I call this sort of the the employment lottery, you know, if you're working for a company that makes you know, protective equipment, and webcams you've done pretty darn well. I've never sold so many masks in my life to sell. If you're a performer Yeah, you are in the meetings industry and hotel and travel and, and conventions and floral integrity. Yeah. I've tried the chiropractor's No, yeah. Why are some some measure of proximity. It has been devastating. Well, Broadway

Joelly Lang:

i think is like God

Unknown:

Absolutely, absolutely. But even the ones that are highly engaging the chuck e cheeses and all those other kind of things, as the father of you know, five, it's, it's I'm so glad that I'm not in that face. It's just devastating. And we aren't all in the same position. And then the other thing we're seeing, and I'm actually sending something out sort of a message to all my people saying, it's also not the time to gloat, you know, there are people who have had great success, but nobody wants to hear of your plenty. I'm when they are feeling a great need. So this is also a good time to reach out. But that goes back to the whole service empathy, it goes back to customer centricity is that we have to be really, really cognizant of what people are going through and the better we can align how we do business and what we sell and how we sell it to the way that they need it. There's that magic Nirvana right now, in terms of success in business, we are of service product centric, asked the question, how much stuff can we sell them? Nothing wrong with that? I mean, that's, that's commerce. But customer centric says, How many ways can we improve their life, you know, it's not about being altruistic and illuminating. I'm saying, but if we're really clear on what we can do to help them, and maybe helping them just means getting them in and out faster, we can make money, they get their needs met. Sure. And there's a connection there.

Joelly Lang:

We talk about that, in your book, why customers leave and how to win them back the story both I think it was the tailor the talking to his son, and he's like, I'm not selling or what I want to sell, or I'm selling her what she wants, she needs to buy, you know, even if it's under selling, some people think Well, why don't you try to do this? Like, no, she doesn't need that. Like, why would I? Why the hell would I tell you?

Unknown:

This? Right? It's taking a long view? I mean, are you in this for the long term? Or do you want to do want to achieve the short sale, when you look at what do they call it LTV lifetime value of a customer, that's significant, you can sell them to him once or you can sell it to sell them for years and years, where they realized that you get them and that you are have their best interest at heart and you build a relationship that can can last long term. Now some things are transactional, right? Use whatever you the stuff that you buy at the, at the counter at the at the gas station, I had a client once who sold little tchotchkes and stuff that you buy at the counter of a convenience store, and they call them shut up toys. And I see what that is like you're just shut up. Absolutely, that's, that's a transaction. And that's different than relationships. Some models are transactional, the best ones are relational, and you do a good job and you continue to meet their needs, and you can sell to them for a long time.

Joelly Lang:

Absolutely. I think brands go for any person, whether it's personal business, and a story about a friend of mine, this is a true story where she was having some mental challenges, which a lot of people are right now struggling, and she was seeing a bunch of different therapists over the years, and was never really happy with any of them and really was struggling. And then now she has someone that she really likes. And I asked her I said, So how's it going? And how do you like her? Because you know what, I really liked her, I think gonna stay and I said, Well, what makes her different than all like all the other ones. And you know, she said, because I feel like she really cares. I feel like she really cares about me and really cares about my problems. And I was thinking, that is universal. When you are working with a business when I work with clients, I'm sure you the same when they feel that you really care. I mean, they're they're yours for life. And

Unknown:

I concur 100%. But here's where I think companies get this wrong, incorporate that into their marketing messaging, like see what it's like to do business with people who really care, but it's absolutely ineffective, caring. And the demonstration of that is a retention tool, not an attraction tool. It's what keeps people there. It keeps people loyal. They don't come to you because you care more. They don't believe that you care more than anybody else. But it doesn't mean it's unimportant, right. But the state, so the messaging to attract somebody, for the first time is often very different or needs to be different than what it takes to retain people, right? It's the old line that when somebody goes to a hardware store to buy a drill, what's their need, right? There need isn't a drill, the need is a hole, they need a hole, the drill is just the best tool to make it happen. Right? But why does somebody go for the first time they go for the first time because it's in proximity? Because they saw an ad because they saw it online? But why do they come back? They come back because they know the store, right? Because they can get in and out quickly because they have a comfort level that this is my hardware store or something else. But the first time that you attract people, it's a different message. What does it take for somebody to try you for the first time? So I love the story about that person who cares? But it really highlights the importance of what does it take to retain your customers and clients?

Joelly Lang:

Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk more about your book because there's so many things and it's such a fantastic book that I mentioned the name why customers leave and how to win them back.

Unknown:

Here you go. By the way, we're talking to David average,

Joelly Lang:

David avem.

Unknown:

The author. Why customers

Joelly Lang:

sorry, is this your podcast? I know you have a podcast coming up. I

Unknown:

want the old radio guy, radio guy and I want

Joelly Lang:

to talk about because this is something you met your book that a lot of people talk about his website. And why websites are so important and how they can turn you off and how you can actually lose business with your website. Can you elaborate a bit on that

Unknown:

there was a time that when you had a new website, it was a big deal. And people sent out press releases. Now, not having a website is is more newsworthy than having one. But there's been a big shift in what it used to be like it needed to be comprehensive, like everything that you have, it's a it's a really robust website. It's got multiple pull downs, everything you've ever written everything you say about yourself, and and then there was that animated flash video at the beginning and the bottom corner and said, click to skip, right, and 100% of people skipped it. Because nobody wants to see your little animation that built your logo, even you skipped your own right? Well, now they're so stripped down, almost everything you need is on the front page, because the website doesn't need to do everything. It just needs to give them enough information, to get them to call or to reach out or to talk to a real person. Now, if you have an e commerce site, it's a little bit different, right? You got to be able to do that stuff. But what's the most trafficked website in the world? But it's Google, how complicated is their website, right? There's almost nothing there. So what we're seeing is a real trend towards everything that they need on the front page, not huge amounts. I mean, I've got content online, most people aren't going to read it's there in case they want it. But my whole goal is to get them because I speak for a living is to get them to, to click on my video to watch a demo of me presenting or to get them on the phone. I mean, that's it. And if it doesn't do that, then it's extraneous. And the more complicated, the more people can't find what they're looking for, the quicker they click away because they can and so but I'll talk to people that say I couldn't find Oh, it's really easy. So it's just go along the top it's the third to the third thing over click on that. It's a second from the bottom click that window. But But you design that Yeah, I don't don't make me look for stuff because I won't part of my message all the time is your biggest source of lost revenue in your business for Everybody listen to your biggest source of lost revenue is the customer you never knew about. They came to the site and actually your way and they didn't because it was hard to find. Or the worst mistake and this gets me on my soapbox. The biggest mistake that organizations making it pisses me off and it pisses everybody else off. ever go to a website, Joey, where you give a question, simple question. There is no phone number. There is no freaking phone that you like you're going page after page like where's there's no freaking front of us. And they made a conscious decision that they were not going to let their customers call them what do they do, they put a contact form a horrible contact form, which drives away more business than your worst employee. And I saw somebody had a presentation they said 86% of people won't fill out a contact form. And I got clients who say when people fill out my form, you have no idea how many people didn't because it literally it is it is voicemail of the internet, we don't leave voicemail messages because we don't know who's going to get and we don't know where they're going to respond. We'll put contact forms instead of phone numbers. And then they say it was great. We can capture their information right now we can market to them later. We're not bothered by those pesky phone calls from clients, really from your customers, those pesky phone calls, or we can have some pre qualifying questions right now we can tailor our response. We just like we can't find somebody to go to somebody else. Yeah,

Joelly Lang:

I agree. I you know, I think when it's during the day, and you have a question, I think like you were talking about I mean, same thing when you have clients and you work with people all over the world. And it's you happen to be up and it's after hours, of course. I mean, that's a great thing. But if it's during the day, and you just have a quick question, there's no phone number, and you have no way of content. I mean, you talk about your book about you know, one of your chapters is about you know, don't be hard to reach.

Unknown:

It's mind boggling that people are there, they have this a billion dollar brand, and it's hard to talk to a real person. I really think that I mean, I think they think in many cases, they've created the cure for cancer that tastes like chocolate, and they're so good that people are gonna hold for an hour. 45 minutes. Listen, Your call is very important to us. Listen to flute. 45 minutes.

Joelly Lang:

You're touching on I think a lot of people's pain points.

Unknown:

But he hates it. It's horrible.

Joelly Lang:

Yeah. So you know you another thing I want to talk about this. I love this title of your chapter here where you say don't peel my leg and tell me it's raining. Yeah, you elaborate on this.

Unknown:

But as a sidebar. Yeah, I had a big fight with my publisher over that title and their how offensive it's not offensive at all. It's why cuz you said P Yeah. Don't tell me it's raining. Yeah, it's kind of funny. I've never talked about this on there. But yeah, I got a big fight. They thought it was crude. Oh, listen, I can go farther than that. I think it's pretty tame. But the whole point of the chapter was just tell us the truth. We're not stupid. You know, our customers are pretty savvy, if there's something if you're having challenges with this, or Oh, yeah, we sent out that cheque yesterday. Well, if you didn't, then just be honest. Sorry, somebody's been out of the office. We've got a cash flow. I mean, at least give me honest information that we can work with that. But there's so many people who try to spin and I think we're just becoming a lot more savvy to spin. So there's just a whole chapter of just be straight, be honest, fall on your sword when you've done something wrong. Absolutely. When the CEO of United Airlines goes on After another screw up and says, This is not who we are, well, it is who you are. Over and over. And I gotta tell you, I'm a million mile or one K, everything with United, I am rooting for United. But as many times as some of these companies screw up and they say we are this is not who we are. Well, it is, in the future be somebody different, but just be honest.

Joelly Lang:

Yeah. And I think to elaborate on that, when you're dealing with customers, and you're working on projects and things and everything is going smoothly. It's easy, right? And you're doing your job. But when things screw up, which happens to everybody, and then you either just own it and say, Yeah, I messed up because of this, this, this versus making up stories and you know, giving them like bs figured out? Absolutely. And then it all goes back, people are way more thankful when you are honest. And that trustworthy thing about people like to do business with people that they know, like and trust, well, they're going to trust you. And they're going to know that if something happens, you're going to tell them versus like, Yeah, I don't know if I believe her. And then you've just now severed a potential good long relationship.

Unknown:

And especially if it's in alignment with who you are, when you let's get back to brand, your brand is your reputation. And that comes over time comes from consistency. It's saying who you are, is living up to it on a regular basis. It's being clear and bold with your differentiators. It's living up to it. And so that when there is a screw up, it's seen as an anomaly. It's seen as an outlier, especially if you own up to it. But if you are not in alignment with who you are, and there's inconsistency, because you have you failed to create internal systems that create that level of consistency of deliverability and everything else, then people are going to be suspect, right? Yeah, people don't want to screw up. They don't want to make a bad decision in the purchasing. And if they don't know what they're going to get, then that becomes a real barrier to loyalty.

Joelly Lang:

Absolutely. And loyalty is huge. I mean, when I try to meet new customers or trying to grow my business, and someone tells me that they have someone that they work with, and they have this loyalty, I say to them, I said, you know what I respect loyalty, because I love that I have my loyal clients, because that is like gold,

Unknown:

but it also guards against others who will try and steal them away.

Joelly Lang:

Oh, exactly. That's what I

Unknown:

did it to you, right. And everybody's tried to in most cases, we talked about customer acquisition. In most cases, it's not customer acquisition, it's customer conversion. Most people are working with somebody. in marketing, we're trying to convince them to stop buying the way they're currently buying, and start buying with us. That's hard. And so one of the ways you guard against that churn, as we say in the industry, that those people who leave you for a competitor is by over delivering and being your customers, treating them great

Joelly Lang:

that was gonna bring me to the toaster story in your book that I thought was pretty much sums up what we're talking about. Yeah, what

Unknown:

we tend to do is we tend to do a lot for clients and customers in the wooing phase. Right? We're trying to attract, and we put on our best, and then as soon as their clients, we spend as organizations spend so much money on the acquisition part on sales, and very little on customer service and keeping them happy. So there's just story, every counter when I was a kid, I remember I was probably six or seven or whatever. I remember going into a bank with my dad, that was back when they had to stand with premiums if anybody you know, my age remembers this. And there was a toaster on the stand. I asked my dad, I said, What's that toaster for you? It's a gift that he give to people who open a new account. And I say cool. I said, do we get a do we get a toaster? And he says no, that's just for new customers. So what what do we get? And he kind of shrugged, he says, right.

Joelly Lang:

Yeah, no sums it up

Unknown:

to attract and we love new customers. But how much are we it's one of the exercises when I go and I consult with clients. And I spend a full day of a variety of exercises, and one of them is about what are we doing to continue to woo our customers at three months at a year because there's no shortage of companies that would love to take your long term clients and turn them into their first time clients by wooing them away and they do it because we take our customers for granted. We think they love us they're gonna stay and we've stopped loving them up. We stopped dating them and

Joelly Lang:

yeah, right. Well, that's why I was saying I wasn't kidding when I said it's like a relationship right? When you first start dating and you're looking good and you're treating your partner, the person you're trying to woo, well. Nice. And then once you have and you're like okay, I'm good now. You know, the facial, the relation falls apart. And I mean, really, business. We're people and we're relationships and that's what it's all about. And I think it's mindful that and it's important to treat everybody in your who you have relationship

Unknown:

I've learned to never stop bringing my wife flowers.

Joelly Lang:

Yeah, that's beautiful.

Unknown:

Somebody else bring her flowers. Nothing gonna happen

Joelly Lang:

if she gets fired from someone else it won't matter because she's loyal to you so. So all that information is so great and there's so much more to read in David David's book why customers leave and how to win them back. I'm holding it up but nobody can see it except for you. So I'm holding it up for you.

Unknown:

It's available on Amazon and everything else. Just look me up David average, AV our high end and everything else. This is my wellness. Commercial at the end.

Joelly Lang:

Okay, so Well, we're not done yet I have to go. Unless you're in a rush here. I

Unknown:

am not. This is my little mini commercial in the middle, we're talking. Okay.

Joelly Lang:

This is David. Kay, I want to talk about your podcast because I saw a little birdie told me and I was very excited to see that you're launching a new podcast. Tell us about it.

Unknown:

Yeah, it's called the customer experience advantage podcast. And I've kind of a different philosophy. I had a podcast that was done before great conversations. And I realized I didn't

Joelly Lang:

want to inspire you Be honest.

Unknown:

In everything that I know, I got a new one that's actually launched it I guess it depends on when you're listening to this, you might be able to find that, but it's gonna be on every major Platform Podcast, but we're video and audio as well. But I'm just interviewing CEOs from creative brands and companies about their unique engagement model. What do they see happening in the world? What's changed as a result of COVID? How are they engaging their customers? How do they prognosticate what's going to happen in the future? We've heard new, normal, new next touchless. Tomorrow, great mind as well. And so I've had the great fortune of I've already started getting some interviews in the can, as we say, in the industry, some very well recognized brands. And so it's kind of great about people who are not just responding to the changes in the industry, but are leading in terms of how we're engaging delivery, curbside online, intuitive. You look at industries, even like banking. I mean, we used to talk to people in banking and finance. And they'd say, you know, our biggest competitive advantage is this, you know, who made the point to their eyes that we know our customers by name? Well, what happens when 95% of your interaction and transactions don't involve a real person? How much stuff are we doing on our phone, right? Every time I get a check from a client, even when I'm on the road, I sit in the back of the Uber, I sign the back of the check, I take a picture of it and it's in, nobody's asked me so what are your plans for the weekend? Right, that'll bank, they're scrambling, yeah, understand how we're going to engage with them differently. And in many ways, the pandemic has accelerated what has long been predicted about how we're going to do business and the pendulum will swing a little bit but but the world has changed. And so the fun thing about my podcast is that I'm having those conversations, What's changed? Where are things going? And how has it revolutionized your business model? I mean, I had my groceries delivered I would never have done that before I think about that. It's awesome. Yeah, we go shopping on the iPad. Oh, I know. I get the chocolate one get like

Joelly Lang:

I know can be dangerous actually shopping. They're gonna eat

Unknown:

anyway, we get home right? But let's hide him at the top. And

Joelly Lang:

so do you. Do you have a name for this awesome podcast? Or it

Unknown:

is and it's just the customer experience advantage podcast with David averin. Okay, you can look it up everywhere and just search me online at David average.

Joelly Lang:

I can't wait. I can't wait. That's

Unknown:

me on yours. Oh, well. I mean, I'm so on up friends for life. Okay,

Joelly Lang:

before you go I want to get back for a second to the musician, singer theater guy because that is you know, that's in my family and I love it. So tell everybody about your musical background and what you did

Unknown:

you know it's fun now as a as an old guys in the car and kids like Oh God, Dad don't sing. I'm like, excuse me. People used to want daddy's autograph got whatever dad. No, I grew up singing but I you know, I that the deep voice was my voice change into high school and everything else I was doing the musical. And then I started my own acapella group, sort of if you've seen Pitch Perfect and all of that. I

Joelly Lang:

say kids, I've seen it like a million times million times because you know what my son is? Yeah.

Unknown:

Well, yeah, it was fun for me. So I did all that. And so I had a group called the diners and in the 80s and not only did I have a mullet, I had a perm mullet.

Joelly Lang:

Monster back in fashion. By the way, please. No, I'm telling you my life. He's 14. Now he just got a mullet. Oh, no kidding.

Unknown:

So just with withhold food, and maybe he'll come to me. Nobody but we did great. We had CDs we opened for Ray Charles we just it was just great. I mean, the but the real fun part was, as my kids grew up watching them do it. And so I have a daughter now who's 26 she's in Los Angeles and she's in an all girl acapella group. And she sang with her college group and they've got they had CDs out. And so it's just kind of fun. It's amazing. Probably mostly due to the fact that I didn't play any instruments that made me gravitate towards

Joelly Lang:

Torquay. So you know what, I'm going to ask you now? No,

Unknown:

I have no idea.

Joelly Lang:

Can you sing us if you

Unknown:

know I don't know. Nobody wants to hear that you can get a good idea. You know, I didn't I didn't sing words. You know, I was the guy growing up to demand them and you know, that's great. And occasional words right? Ah, no intro dude. But it but it did deep, deep, deep new battery do better than that. And I would zone out and every day just like you know, looking around the room because I you know, I don't really words have to remember anyway. So it's like the drain. rummer I love it.

Joelly Lang:

Do you remember the girl shot? Was it Shana or Yeah,

Unknown:

so it was Baba Baba, Baba, Baba Baba Baba Dang. Dang. Dang boo, boo. That kind of stuff.

Joelly Lang:

I love it. Oh, thank you for doing that. That's great. So if someone wants to learn more about you and about your books and your podcast and all your speaking what is the best way for them to get a hold of you?

Unknown:

It's it's everywhere. Just look me up online at David averin.com a v r i n. And there's YouTube, I have a really cool initiative called the customer experience advantage morning huddle, where I lead a morning huddle virtually for organizations around the world. And that's a customer experience. advantage.com kind of a cool thing. So other than that, just look me up.

Joelly Lang:

Thank you so much, David. I appreciate so much. It's been really great getting to know you and I'm loving follow you and I can't wait for your podcasts. I'm gonna definitely sign up. Okay, well, we will talk to you soon.

Unknown:

Bye.

Joelly Lang:

There you have it. Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed the conversation, and maybe even learned a few things that will help you with your branding. And most of all, I really hope you had some fun. This podcast is a work in progress. So please make sure to rate and review what you think. And please subscribe to branding matters on whatever platform you listen to. And please share with anyone you think would also enjoy it. And if you want to learn more about the branding badass, that's me. You can find me on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn under you guessed it, branding badass. So thanks again, you guys and until next time, here's to all you badasses out there.